Another Scotland international - J Gourlay x2

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Another Scotland international - J Gourlay x2

Postby ScottishFA » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:25 pm

Just made a rather surprising discovery which increases by one the number of Scotland international players.

For Scotland v Ireland in 1886 and Scotland v Wales in 1888, there was a J Gourlay of Cambuslang in the team. The reference books allocate both caps to the same guy.

However, it seems they were actually brothers. In Archibald Steel's '25 Years of Football' he talks about J Gourlay (1) and J Gourlay (2) both winning caps. Along with their third brother H Gourlay they came from Annbank and all three played in the Scottish Cup final of 1888. This is confirmed in the Scottish Football Annual the following year, which also gives the second cap as (2).

In DD Bone's 'Scottish Football Reminiscences and Sketches', now available online, he identifies them as James and John.

James was a forward, John a half back, so it was James v Ireland in 1886 and John v Wales in 1888.

Doug Lamming gives further details of James, with a full name of James McCrorie Gourlay, b 1/11/1860 in Kilmaurs, d 10/3/1939; and he was father of Jimmy Gourlay who scored Morton's cup winning goal in 1922.

But no further details of John - unless anyone can help?
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Postby Scottish » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:47 pm

I had some spare credits hanging about on Scotlandspeople so I tried to check this out. There was only one John Gourlay born in Kilmaurs 1855-1870. The birth was on Jan 5th 1862 at Kirkton, Kilmaurs to parents James Gourlay, a boilermaker, and Margaret Gourlay (nee Steel). They were married June 15th 1856 at 36 Abbotsford Place, Glasgow.

However this was not the brother of James McCrorie Gourlay, who, as Doug Lamming states, was born 1/11/1860 in Kilmaurs. His parents were John Gourlay, a coal miner & Sarah Gourlay (nee McCrorie).

So, either John was born elsewhere (Annbank perhaps?) or he was born before 1855,when registration started in Scotland.

I'd just add the usual caveat about spelling and say if searching to also use Gourley & Gourlie.
Last edited by Scottish on Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ScottishFA » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:58 pm

Of course, it also depends on Lamming being correct! If you really have the time, it means checking the Gourlay families in that area and seeing which one had three brothers...
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Postby Scottish » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:05 pm

ScottishFA wrote:Of course, it also depends on Lamming being correct! If you really have the time, it means checking the Gourlay families in that area and seeing which one had three brothers...


Also on the others being correct about them being brothers though of course that was very common among footballers at that time. The Ayrshire Roots website has only four Gourlays - of any spelling variation in it - and all female and predating 1855. Given that Gourlay is a common enough surname it suggests not too many of that ilk researching their ancestors.

Of course the 1871 census for Annbank would be a good place to look to see if there were three children with the right names and parents.... but I'm out of credit now at Scotlandspeople and as they time you from the moment you buy more I'm not adding any just now.
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Postby LEATHERSTOCKING » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:30 pm

The oldest WEE RED BOOK I have is 1948-49 & both Gourleys are in it. They both disappear from 1979-80`s until the single Gourley with 2 caps appears in 1992-93`s. He`s still there in the current edition. The first Rothmans of 1970-71 also lists the single player a trait they continue right up to the latest edition. The Scottish Football Association annuals all do indeed correctly list two separate players. Richard Keir`s Complete International does name two different Gourlays but then lumps them together in his caps list. If all the Gourlays in the 1888 Cup Final were brothers that, surely, is a record.
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Postby LEATHERSTOCKING » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:31 pm

Sorry for mis-spelling the name in the above. I was hurrying off for my hot tea!
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Re: Another Scotland international - J Gourlay x2

Postby ScottishFA » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:50 am

It's been a while since I started this thread, but I've just come across a couple of news stories in the Scotsman online archive which clarify and complicate the story.

First, on 9 June 1926:
Former footballer killed: When a steelworker named James Gourlay, Kirkhill, Cambuslang, was in the act of crossing the main street at Cambuslang, opposite the railway station, yesterday afternoon, he was knocked down by a large motor bus and killed instantaneously. The deceased was at one time a well-known footballer, being a member of the old Cambuslang club, which won the Glasgow Cup and he also played against the famous Renton club in the final of the Scottish Cup. He was capped by the Scottish Association against Ireland. Gourlay was 63 years of age.

Then, on 16 December 1930:
As a result of injuries sustained in the Annbank pit explosion, John Gourlay, fireman, has died in Ayr County Hospital, making the second death since the accident on Thursday last. Gourlay, who was a married man with seven of a family, was well known in football circles. He himself had been a player with Annbank FC, and a brother played with Greenock Morton and Everton.

So, the first story confirms that James Gourlay of Cambuslang got just one cap (v Ireland in 1886), but it also indicates that Lamming's identification of him as James McCrorie Gourlay, b 1860 d 1939, was wrong. If he was 63 at his death, he was born in 1862/63.

The second story relates to Morton cup-winner Jimmy Gourlay's brother, and it is interesting that neither story refers to the original James Gourlay being the father of Jimmy Gourlay (which I would have expected given the amount of other detail).

This will need further investigation, but could be a tricky one without spending a fair few credits on Scotland's People.
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Re: Another Scotland international - J Gourlay x2

Postby soccerhistory » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:18 pm

From Scotlands People

James Gourlay (steelworker) aged 63 died on 8 June 1926 (death was registered on 9 June) at Cambuslang as a result of being run over. His parents were Bertram & Margaret Gourlay (both deceased). There is more information on the death certificate but it is difficult to decipher.

A James Gourlay was born 30 October 1862 at Cambuslang the son of Bertram Gourlay and Margaret Brown Gourlay.

From the CD ROM version of the 1881 Census:

Dwelling: Kirkhill Road
Census Place: Cambuslang, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203619 GRO Ref Volume 627 EnumDist 4 Page 10
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Bertram GOURLAY M 45 M Rutherglen, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Coal Miner
Margaret B. GOURLAY M 43 F Cambuslang, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Wife
James GOURLAY U 18 M Cambuslang, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Coal Miner
John GOURLAY 15 M Cambuslang, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Coal Miner
Bertram GOURLAY 14 M Cambuslang, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Coal Miner
Malcolm GOURLAY 9 M Cambuslang, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Margaret GOURLAY 7 F Cambuslang, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Jane GOURLAY 5 M Cambuslang, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
William GOURLAY 2 M Cambuslang, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
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Re: Another Scotland international - J Gourlay x2

Postby Steve Emms » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:34 am

Just to add to the confusion. I've got
1) James McCrorie Gourlay born Kilmaurs 1 November 1860, died Annbank 10 March 1939, moving from Abercorn to Cambuslang in 1887.
2) James Gourley born Maryhill 30.10.1862, died Cambuslang 8.6.1926 - at Cambuslang from 1887 on
3) S Gourlay - no details, but 10 League appearances for Cambuslang in 1891/2.

I can't find any record of John Gourlay playing any league games - unless S Gourlay is a misprint?
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Re: Another Scotland international - J Gourlay x2

Postby Scottish » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:04 am

'soccerhistory' has kindly provided James Gourlay's birth and death certificates

Birth

Death
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Re: Another Scotland international - J Gourlay x2

Postby ayrayrsuperayr » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:47 pm

Hi Gents

Just cam across your post several years ago!

I'm James Gourlays, great great grandson. I have the photo of James and the Scotland team from that time
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Re: Another Scotland international - J Gourlay x2

Postby ScottishFA » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:30 am

Welcome to the board and thanks for the post.

Can you shed any light on the other Gourlays (in particular the other Scotland international) - were they related to your gt gt grandfather?
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Re: Another Scotland international - J Gourlay x2

Postby ScottishFA » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:47 pm

Finally! Have sorted out the two James Gourlays.

I've explained in a blog post: http://www.scottishsporthistory.com/1/post/2014/01/more-double-trouble-the-two-james-gourlays-of-cambuslang.html

It is complicated, but for the sake of brevity:

J Gourlay (1) capped for Scotland v Ireland in 1886, was James Gourlay, born Cambuslang 30 October 1862, died in Cambuslang 8 June 1926 (killed by a bus).

J Gourlay (2) capped for Scotland v Wales in 1888, was James McCrorie Gourlay, born Annbank 1 November 1860, died Annbank 10 March 1939.

They both played in the 1888 Scottish Cup Final, and were not related.

For the latter, I have a family tree with eight James Gourlays and six John Gourlays spread over three generations, all from Annbank.
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Re: Another Scotland international - J Gourlay x2

Postby leicester » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:33 pm

Hi Andy,

Could I just ask, please, if the following guy crops up in the extended family tree to which you refer?

Gourlay, John
b. Annbank, 13th April 1876
Career: 1895 Annbank; cs 1896 Loughborough; cs 1897 Oldham County; Dec 1897 New Brighton Tower; Aug 1898 Motherwell; [Feb 1899 Manchester United?]; Apr 1899 Royal Albert.
Loughborough Debut v Notts County (H) 24.10.1896 (D2)
An outside- or inside-right who had been part of Annbank’s Scottish Qualifying Cup-winning side of 1896, John had but a month as a Luffs first-teamer. He scored the matchwinner against Gainsborough Trinity in the last of his quartet of Second Division matches, but was suspended by the club (along with fellow-Scots McBride and Muir) after the following week’s FA Cup exit at Mansfield Town, and unspecified ‘incidents’ on the night before. He subsequently joined Oldham County, but that club went bust in October 1897; and he finished the term with their erstwhile Lancashire League rivals New Brighton. He was then partway through his season with Motherwell when opponents Ayr United queried his eligibility, and it transpired that John had failed to inform his new club that Loughborough still retained his registration, and were therefore due a transfer fee. The Scottish League accepted Motherwell’s defence of ignorance, but would not sanction him playing for them again until agreement was reached with the Luffs. Curiously ­– and suspiciously - while this rigmarole was going on, a John Gourlay ‘of Annbank’ appeared at centre-half in two Manchester United line-ups (a friendly against Celtic and a League game against the Luffs) before disappearing just as abruptly.
Loughborough Apps: FL 4; FAC 1. Gls: FL 1.

Any extra info very welcome.

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Re: Another Scotland international - J Gourlay x2

Postby leicester » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:47 pm

I should have added to the above query that the Luffs' John Gourlay was, to the best of my knowledge, the illegitimate child of coalminer Owen Gourlay and his housekeeper, registered as Gourley.

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