Cup Draws

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Alan McCabe
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Cup Draws

Post by Alan McCabe » Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:13 pm

And I thought the 5th Round draw for the Scottish FA Cup was confusing, in light of all the postponements!

The East of Scotland FA executive drew the Semi-Finals of the King Cup last night and it resulted in this :

Eyemouth United OR Whitehill Welfare OR Spartans OR Lothian Thistle OR Craigroyston v Tynecastle OR Leith Athletic OR Civil Service Strollers OR Peebles OR Ormiston OR Heriot-Watt University
and
Coldstream OR Selkirk OR Stirling University OR Edinburgh City OR Kelso United OR Gretna 2008 v Easthouses Lily MW OR Vale of Leithen OR Preston Athletic OR Edinburgh University OR Hawick Royal Albert

I cannot imagine ANY semi-final draw has ever been staged with 22 names in the hat?
Could they not have held it over to a later meeting seeing as the competition appears to be running slightly behind schedule.
I wonder how well the Scottish Parliament official would have done with this considering he managed to make a hash of a League Cup semi-final draw a couple of years back?

HibeeJibee
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Post by HibeeJibee » Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:14 am

As the main instigator of this draw being conducted as so, I should maybe explain the reasoning behind it. The East of Scotland FA has no Executive (the East of Scotland FL does), which means that draws have to be made by the full Management Committee (of 26 clubs) which happen on the last Thursday of Jan/Mar/Apr/Sep/Nov, plus AGM in late May or in early June...

The King Cup R1 was January 16th, but was entirely frozen off, leaving all the R1 games unplayed. Vale of Leithen v Gala was last weekend, as they were due to meet in the League anyway: so the game's status was flipped to a King Cup tie. The other R1 ties, plus the two possible R2 ties, will try again on the R2 date (February 13th). And then outstanding games will be caught up on February 27th (which is currently left blank - originally for League Cup R1) in turn... of course weather could frustrate this further for various non-floodlit clubs!!

The R3 date is March 20th (before the next Management Committee), and the SF date is April 10th or 17th. Therefore R3 had to be drawn at the meeting, while leaving the SF draw to late March would mean fixtures - in both the King Cup and the League - for the SF date would have been 'unduly' delayed. This would in turn have affected the issuing of fixtures for adjacent weeks: also note the South Challenge Cup is still going + League Cup not started!!

So drawing the SFs was just a logical move of pulling 4 balls from a vase.


The EOSFA & FL currently employs a "flexible fixture list"... attempting to utilise a more rigid date framework / issue provisional fixtures for whole season, revised after 6 months / and if possible have all games confirmed 1 month in advance. This is in contrast to the SPL/SFL/SHFL (who all have league-heavy + cup-light programs, and universal floodlighting) / but also to the SOSFL/Juniors - who continue to issue in small 'batches', a week or 2 in advance. The system was near-universally acclaimed in 2008-09 ;-) ...

The Highland League drew the entirety of their 18-team League Cup, in a single go last week (which was 4 rounds at once); so it is not that unusual.

Alan McCabe
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Post by Alan McCabe » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:40 am

I am aware through your time on Pie & Bovril that you had taken over the fixture allocation HJ.
I wasn't trying to ridicule it merely pointing out what, to me at least, appeared to be one of the 'busiest' draw schedules I had witnessed.
I appreciate all the reasoning behind the dates and the future meeting dates but do wonder if it would beyond the realms of possibility to possibly make draws immediately after the majority of the round has been completed in one of the club grounds?
Possibly unworkable I know especially given the awful weather conditions of late.
Good luck in your attempts to modernise the fixture allocation in the local leagues. The juniors might be on board with this idea for the start of the 22nd century.

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Post by HibeeJibee » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:40 pm

Cheers Alan, wasn't at all offended/ridiculed by the post and just thought I would explain the background. It was certainly a bizarre draw to read!!

The rules (as always) are King 8) and only the Management Committee is allowed to make a draw, or devolve responsibility for an individual draw... unfortunately the November meeting was cancelled and obviously back in September no-one would have anticipated that - or the bad weather - etc.

The League Cup will likely be drawn all at once in late March with no less than 23 clubs :D!!


As regards modernising fixture allocation in the local leagues, my system worked well last season (which was by far the worst in EOS history... 138 games lost). The season finished in May, with no-one playing 3-games-a-week, and all cup finals on weekends. When you consider some clubs had only played 2, 3 of 4 league games out of 22, come Christmas... and that Gretna didn't play their first home league game until mid-February... that was both a relief and a vindication. This season we have had just short of 80 games lost. I also implemented a number of innovations which had, in previous years, been resisted or not utilised: for example, playing league games on midweek in August / playing Friday-Sunday on Scotland dates / and playing floodlit catch-up games in February + March. All have worked.

A lot of supporters and the media call for an SPL-style fixture list, but that will never be possible... We have far too few league games, far too many cups and therefore cup games, not enough floodlights - and suffer far too many postponements - to make it workable. But we do about as well as we can.

The Juniors of course have a different approach - for a variety of reasons which are well-documented. Some suit their circumstances better, some I understand but disagree with, some I find irrational and confusing, but ultimately their clubs seem happy with it. Each to their own, etc.

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Post by Scottish » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:00 pm

The Scottish Cup 3rd round draw in 1963 was a cracker:

Airdrieonians or Stranraer or Motherwell v East Stirlingshire or Rangers
Dundee or Montrose v Hibernian
East Fife or Third Lanark v Raith Rovers
Celtic or Heart of Midlothian v Gala Fairydean or Duns
Kilmarnock or Queen of the South v Hamilton Academical or Nairn County
Queen's Park v Ayr United or Dundee United
St Johnstone or Stenhousemuir or Aberdeen v Cowdenbeath or Dunfermline Athletic
St Mirren v Partick Thistle or Morton or Arbroath

On the same day the draw was made (Jan 28th) the FA in England rather sensibly postponed making the draw for the FA Cup 5th round.

macjackb
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draws r us

Post by macjackb » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:08 am

And wasn't it little more than 20 years ago that someone decided it'd be cool to have Mrs Thatcher make the draw for one of the latter rounds of the Cup before a single match in the previous round had taken place? For the SFA our wee trinket presumably needed the added prestige, whilst for the lady herself it'd hopefully inject a proletarian boost into one of her northern badland forays. Successful strategies all round, and another proud day in our soccer history. And the weather was fine.

John Meffen

Post by John Meffen » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:33 am

I just noticed something, which confuses me! Why are Stirling University not in the Stirlingshire Cup?
Steward's Enquiry

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Re: draws r us

Post by Scottish » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:41 pm

macjackb wrote:And wasn't it little more than 20 years ago that someone decided it'd be cool to have Mrs Thatcher make the draw for one of the latter rounds of the Cup before a single match in the previous round had taken place?
Yes, wasn't this the semi-final draw around 1989?

Another great draw was for the quarter-finals in 1966 when snow postponed all the second round games on February 19th:

Dumbarton or Queen of the South v Aberdeen or Dundee United
Heart of Midlothian or Hibernian v Dundee or Celtic
Ross County or Rangers v Cowdenbeath or St Johnstone
Stirling Albion or Dunfermline Athletic v Kilmarnock or Motherwell

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Post by ScottishFA » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:53 pm

John Meffen wrote:I just noticed something, which confuses me! Why are Stirling University not in the Stirlingshire Cup?
Steward's Enquiry
Er, they are not members of the Stirlingshire FA.

John Meffen

Post by John Meffen » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:57 pm

I, well I know that, but I thought they ought to be, you cannae get more stirlingshire than stirling
maybe they just don't want to

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Re: draws r us

Post by lbb » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:49 pm

scottish wrote: Yes, wasn't this the semi-final draw around 1989?
It would have been 1990 as she visited Ibrox in March 1990. :oops:

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Re: draws r us

Post by Scottish » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:11 pm

lbb wrote: It would have been 1990 as she visited Ibrox in March 1990. :oops:
Just missed the 300th anniversary celebrations by a few months then.

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Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:24 pm

John Meffen wrote:I just noticed something, which confuses me! Why are Stirling University not in the Stirlingshire Cup?
Steward's Enquiry
You can't be a member of 2 regional FAs at the same time... If Stirling Uni entered the Stirlingshire Cup, by being in the Stirlingshire FA - they would play in that pre-season tournament. But they would not participate in any of the domestic EOS cups (i.e. Alex Jack; EOS Qualifying; King Cup); etc. and obviously this would leave them playing far fewer games in a season.

That said even being in a regional FA no longer means you enter their cup as (for example): Glasgow Uni don't enter the Glasgow Cup (now for U-17 sides anyway) / Aberdeen enter nothing and various other Aberdeenshire and Highland clubs have not entered any tournaments recently / Killie Ayr and the various Lanarkshire sides enter nothing. Livingston aren't even in a regional FA, neither are Morton (who get an invite to Renfrewshire Cup).

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Post by BMCCOLL » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:24 am

On the 18 December 1924, the draw was made for the 1925-26 Glasgow Cup, the first ties to be played on 5 September. So off on a slight tangent, apart from the big international tournaments, what is the earliest that a competition has been drawn?

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