FOULS

The place to discuss Scottish football
LEATHERSTOCKING
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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:40 am

I can`t be exact because I didn`t start counting until it dawned on me but at least nine minutes went by during the 1st half last night without a foul and, until a little rash of them just before the interval, I don`t think there had been more than half a dozen. Can anyone verify by a tape recording?

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Post by Scottish » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:52 am

FIFA's figures are for the whole match which gave Germany committing nine fouls and Spain seven. That's a very low total. The Germans have conceded 64 fouls in six matches, Spain 63. Which compares well with 60 each by Australia and New Zealand who both only played three matches and also to the other two semi-finalists. Holland have committed 98 fouls and Uruguay 86.

Spain have reached the final with just three yellow cards against them, easily the best average (0.5 per match) of the 32 teams though North Korea have fewer total cards (2).

Also, there were no bookings last night, which for a match of such importance is unusual. Graham Poll was on Twitter complaining about a lack of cards and teams being too respectful. The Hungarian referee Kassai is clearly one to watch in the future. I think he did a good job last night.

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Post by msdkfc » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:19 am

scottish wrote:FIFA's figures are for the whole match which gave Germany committing nine fouls and Spain seven. That's a very low total. The Germans have conceded 64 fouls in six matches, Spain 63. Which compares well with 60 each by Australia and New Zealand who both only played three matches and also to the other two semi-finalists. Holland have committed 98 fouls and Uruguay 86.

Spain have reached the final with just three yellow cards against them, easily the best average (0.5 per match) of the 32 teams though North Korea have fewer total cards (2).

Also, there were no bookings last night, which for a match of such importance is unusual. Graham Poll was on Twitter complaining about a lack of cards and teams being too respectful. The Hungarian referee Kassai is clearly one to watch in the future. I think he did a good job last night.
Whenever i hear Victor Kassai's name mentioned, i immediately think of the old Remington Shaver adverts!

(Like Lawro i can do bad puns as well evidently..)

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Post by Scottish » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:22 am

msdkfc wrote: Whenever i hear Victor Kassai's name mentioned, i immediately think of the old Remington Shaver adverts!

(Like Lawro i can do bad puns as well evidently..)
You're not as good as Kiam

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Post by Snuff » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:46 pm

I must admit, I hadn't noticed how few fouls there were last night - although I did think there was more football played. I was perhaps dazzled by the number of passes, something we're simp[ly not used to in Scotland - where a player who can pass directly to the feet of a team mate five yards away gets a round of applause for his evident class!!

Our biff-bang British style off football makes for warming entertainment on a cauld winter's day, but ill-prepares our players for the more technical European or world game. We fans have known this for years, our club managers and directors have known it, but do nothing about it. Then, when our teams play in Europe, we moan like mad about European referees awarding fouls for nothing.

I remember a couple of seasons ago Willie Collum refereed a game I was at, his first in Scotland since returning from a UEFA referee's seminar in Switzerland.

He was refereeing to the UEFA referee's handbook and the result was a stop-start game which deteriorated, because the players too thick to "play the referee" and cut out the stupid challenges.

I feel this World Cup has (again) shown how far behind the times we are on this wee group of offshore islands - but I don't think the will for change is yet evident in British Isles football's corridors of power.
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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:19 pm

I don`t think the standards have been consistently good in these finals(there are individual exceptions, of course) and the bullies of FIFA are mostly to blame thanks to their bloated group stages which mitigate against open, attacking play. Scotland are, quite frankly, no worse than quite a few of those countries which paraded their wares on our TV screens this summer thanks to FIFA`s craven desire to satisfy the aspirations of various member associations. By a quirk of geography(and not being able to beat the Dutch, Norwegians & Macedonians often enough of course), we missed out. Incidently, don`t miss this week`s PRIVATE EYE where there are several cracking articles on the World Cup & FIFA plus the Pseudo Names section; I especially enjoyed "Kai Bosch" & the Alan Hansen related one from "Terry Bell/D.Fendin." "Lookalikes" brackets Rene from `Allo, `Allo with del Bosque!

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Post by Scottish » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:22 pm

LEATHERSTOCKING wrote:the bullies of FIFA are mostly to blame thanks to their bloated group stages which mitigate against open, attacking play.
The group stages are a big problem. It takes 75% of the games in the competition to remove 50% of the teams. But I don't see any countries demanding to have a knockout competition in which they would fly halfway round the world to leave after one game. Nor do I see any countries object every time FIFA (or UEFA for that matter) ups the number of entrants and consequently the number of matches.
LEATHERSTOCKING wrote: Scotland are, quite frankly, no worse than quite a few of those countries which paraded their wares on our TV screens this summer thanks to FIFA`s craven desire to satisfy the aspirations of various member associations. By a quirk of geography(and not being able to beat the Dutch, Norwegians & Macedonians often enough of course), we missed out.
Much as I hate to disagree with you, this is wishful thinking. We managed one win in six matches against the countries you mention. We are not as good as in the past and those past sides which did qualify hardly covered themselves in glory against the 'lesser' teams. Our record in the finals as a whole is pretty abysmal.
LEATHERSTOCKING wrote: Rene from `Allo, `Allo with del Bosque!
Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once. J'accord.

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Post by Scottish » Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:23 am

Compare with 47 fouls, 13 yellow cards and on red (admittedly over an extra 30 minutes) last night.

Of course apart from the different attitude of the Germans (international football' new good guys) there was a decent referee in charge during the semi-final and not one who thinks that honouring the memory of a dead friend merits the same punishment as planting your studs in an opponent's chest.

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Post by Scottish » Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:36 am

Let's put it this way:

A Howard Webb booking

Image

Another Howard Webb booking

Image

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:06 pm

scottish wrote:Compare with 47 fouls, 13 yellow cards and on red (admittedly over an extra 30 minutes) last night.

Of course apart from the different attitude of the Germans (international football' new good guys) there was a decent referee in charge during the semi-final and not one who thinks that honouring the memory of a dead friend merits the same punishment as planting your studs in an opponent's chest.
All very evocative but everyone on the planet who has ever watched football knows that removing your shirt to celebrate a goal is a bookable offence. I'm sure Iniesta knew it full well when he did it too and undoubtedly didn't care. It's not Webb's fault, he may very well agree it's a stupid rule, but a rule it never the less is.

You'll get no argument on the De Jong kick though. Clear red card. I don't think Webb had the best of angles of it to be fair to him. He was pretty much behind Alonso and didn't see the actual degree of contact.

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Post by Snuff » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:00 pm

Why could not Webb have done what every half-decent rugby referee does when it looks as if things are getting out of hand.

He should have called Van Bronckhurst over and told him: "The next time one of your guys as much as sneezes without saying 'beg your pardon' it's a yellow card" - then acted.

And when did this presumption against red cards in showpiece games start; also this "anywhere else on the field that's a foul" after a penalty isn't given?

Football will be killed by cynicism and "professional fouls" unless the authorities bite the bullet and adopt a zero tolerance approach to the petty fouls such as jersey pulling, diving and this thing about demanding a yellow card after every foul.

The first referee who says: "I decide on yellow cards and you've just got yourself one", to someone asking for an opponent to be booked will do the game a great service.

I agree with Euan about the Iniesta booking - silliest of the night, he ought to know about not taking off your shirt.

That said, I understand FIFA's reasoning for bringing it in was to stop this practice of wearing slogan simmets. Worthy though Iniesta's support for his dead team mate was, if referees checked for slogan simmets before the kick off there would be no reason to remove the strip.

By the way, what confidence by the Spanish to have the red shirts with the single gold star to indicaate a World Cup win ready for the medal ceremony. That could really have back-fired on them.
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Re: fouls

Post by Skyline Drifter » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:14 pm

Snuff wrote:The first referee who says: "I decide on yellow cards and you've just got yourself one", to someone asking for an opponent to be booked will do the game a great service.
On that subject, I recall at the last world cup FIFA made it known that anyone waving an imaginery card would themselves be booked and I recall at least some being booked for it.

I take it this is no longer the hot topic because in just about every match this time around I saw at least one example of it but I can't recall seeing anyone booked for it. One of the Spaniards certainly waved one right in Webb's face last night after one tackle in midfield.

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Post by Snuff » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:01 pm

Then, of course, there was poor old Gazza, who was actually booked for waving a real yellow card at a referee.

That said, Dougie Smith had long since lost his sense of humour - through doing umpteen Auchinleck v Cumnock games on his way up to Grade One.
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Post by Scottish » Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:10 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote:t everyone on the planet who has ever watched football knows that removing your shirt to celebrate a goal is a bookable offence. I'm sure Iniesta knew it full well when he did it too and undoubtedly didn't care. It's not Webb's fault, he may very well agree it's a stupid rule, but a rule it never the less is.
Just as they also know that carrying on with the ball after being whistled for offside was also a bookable offence. Arjen Robben knew this. Howard Webb knew this. Fortunately Webb possessed enough sense to realise that Robben had already been booked and that in the light of what had gone on before a sending-off would in such circumstances would have been stupid.

Webb turned a blind eye when it suited.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:01 pm

scottish wrote:
Skyline Drifter wrote:t everyone on the planet who has ever watched football knows that removing your shirt to celebrate a goal is a bookable offence. I'm sure Iniesta knew it full well when he did it too and undoubtedly didn't care. It's not Webb's fault, he may very well agree it's a stupid rule, but a rule it never the less is.
Just as they also know that carrying on with the ball after being whistled for offside was also a bookable offence. Arjen Robben knew this. Howard Webb knew this. Fortunately Webb possessed enough sense to realise that Robben had already been booked and that in the light of what had gone on before a sending-off would in such circumstances would have been stupid.

Webb turned a blind eye when it suited.
True, though I'm sure he was able to claim at least some doubt that Robben had heard the whistle. That's his "get out". There's no get out on the shirt removal. He did it, he knew it was a booking, he didn't care. That's fine. Nobody cares most likely. Might have been different if he was already on a booking but he wasn't.

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