Online Archive

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Re: Online Archive

Postby Alan Brown » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:03 pm

I have both editions of your Killie book David. I can remember trying to buy the first edition at John Smith's bookshop in Glasgow in 1994
but they didn't have it in stock. When I asked them to order it they ordered 20 copies! Great wee shop.

Thanks for the update on scorers/attendances.

I presume Davy Allan will have all the results in a file, if so it would be just a simple copy and paste job to transfer the data
over to his format hopefully.
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Re: Online Archive

Postby bobby s » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:30 am

1) Have we decided on a default format?

2) Are we starting with the period 1890-1939 first?

If I can see a default format, I'll amend my spreadsheet to suit.
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Re: Online Archive

Postby Sat31March1928 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:52 pm

bobby s wrote:1) Have we decided on a default format?

2) Are we starting with the period 1890-1939 first?

If I can see a default format, I'll amend my spreadsheet to suit.


I just spent 40 minutes posting a big long reply and hit 'save' rather than 'submit' then trying to get it back I lost it altogether. I'll put together a few suggestions of the different file layouts and why they are in that format and post them up over the weekend.
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Re: Online Archive

Postby BMCCOLL » Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:16 pm

If no one minds, once I've completed Clyde's 19th Century games, I'll start on Renton's.
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf
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Re: Online Archive

Postby honestman » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:20 pm

I would be prepared to cover Ayr United's top division years - unfortunately I already had all the relevant information for Ayr from 1910 to 1945 and have misplaced it, this is despite two visits to the darkest depths of my loft.
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Re: Online Archive

Postby sureitsza » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:49 pm

East Stirlingshire 32-33 done but not complete.
Aug 20 A v Clyde - team needed.
Oct 29 A v Third Lanark - team needs confirmed paper poor
Nov 05 H v Ayr United - team needs confirmed
Dec 24 A v Morton - scorer and team needed - no report in paper
Mar 11 A v St Mirren - scorer needed.

St Mirren 1920-21 statrted.
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Re: Online Archive

Postby Alan Brown » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:06 pm

Here is the latest update as to who is doing what research:

Abercorn ALAN BROWN
Aberdeen BOOK
Airdrieonians
Albion Rovers "GOGSY1968"
Alloa Athletic DAVID ROSS
Arbroath ALAN BROWN
Ayr United "HONESTMAN"
Bo'ness THOMAS McGOURAN
Cambuslang DAVID ROSS
Celtic BOOK
Clyde BRIAN McCOLL
Clydebank ALAN BROWN
Cowdenbeath "COWDENBEATHER"
Cowlairs ALAN BROWN
Dumbarton BOOK
Dundee BOOK
Dundee United BOOK
Dunfermline Athletic THOMAS McGOURAN
East Fife ALAN BROWN
East Stirling THOMAS McGOURAN
Falkirk JOHN MEFFEN
Hamilton Academical BOOK
Heart of Midlothian LONDON HEARTS WEBSITE
Hibernian BOBBY SINNETT
Kilmarnock DAVID ROSS
Leith Athletic "StAndrewsHMFC"
Morton
Motherwell
Partick Thistle BOOK
Port Glasgow Athletic ALAN BROWN
Queen of the South
Queen's Park BOOK
Raith Rovers BOOK
Rangers BOOK
Renton BRIAN McCOLL
St Bernard's BOOK
St Johnstone BOOK
St Mirren THOMAS McGOURAN
Third Lanark ALAN BROWN
Vale of Leven ALAN BROWN

That leaves just Airdrie (1920/21 onwards), Motherwell (1920/21 onwards) Morton (1920/21 onwards) and Queen of the South.

Any takers?

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Re: Online Archive

Postby Alan Brown » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:11 pm

bobby s wrote:1) Have we decided on a default format?

2) Are we starting with the period 1890-1939 first?

If I can see a default format, I'll amend my spreadsheet to suit.



We will use the format that Davy Allan recommends. We should be able to paste the research we have done into the londonhearts
format fairly easily.

We should try to complete thr 1890-1939 period before moving on to either the war years or post 1946.
Personally I think the war years should be included even though they were "unofficial" seasons.

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Re: Online Archive

Postby Scottish » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:10 am

Not sure quite what the status of current QoS research is given Skyline Drifter's earlier post but I'm happy to take on their 1933-39 period.

Regarding WW2, I think it better to compile a post-war record first. There are several reasons for doing so, among them the obvious continuity of status regarding matches. Also, in many ways the war period is harder to research given the newsprint rationing of the times. I know this continued after 1945 but this problem affects virtually the entire wartime period.

IIRC when the AFS set out on a similar venture for English football nearly 30 years ago this was how they did it.
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Re: Online Archive

Postby Scottish » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:12 am

Sat31March1928 wrote:
I just spent 40 minutes posting a big long reply and hit 'save' rather than 'submit' then trying to get it back I lost it altogether. I'll put together a few suggestions of the different file layouts and why they are in that format and post them up over the weekend.


Isn't it in your drafts in your user control panel?
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Re: Online Archive

Postby Alan Brown » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:28 am

David if your going to take on Queen of the South then you can miss out season 1938/39 as I have researched all the
division one and Scottish cup matches from that season for each club. Unfortunately the stats are in a 'Rothmans' style
format eg. numbers against players instead of 'names across the page'.

I will e-mail you the pdf I have for 1938/39 and you can maybe put it up on the website for members to access. This will
help to avoid duplication of work.

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Re: Online Archive

Postby Scottish » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:08 am

sureitsza wrote:East Stirlingshire 32-33 done but not complete.
Aug 20 A v Clyde - team needed.
Oct 29 A v Third Lanark - team needs confirmed paper poor
Nov 05 H v Ayr United - team needs confirmed
Dec 24 A v Morton - scorer and team needed - no report in paper
Mar 11 A v St Mirren - scorer needed.

St Mirren 1920-21 statrted.



V Clyde there was a 'probable' team in the paper on the day of the match as follows:

Watson or “Newman,” Buchanan, Fraser, McClurg, Crichton, McCabe, Latimer, Black, Craigie, Turnbull, Kemp.

It's clear from the Monday paper that "Newman" was the keeper and Crichton was an ever-present.

V Thirds I make it Crawford, Buchanan, Fraser, McLurg, Crichton, McCabe, Latimer, Craigie, McAulay, Thomson, Kemp

v Ayr I make it Crawford, Buchanan, Fraser, McCabe, Crichton, Kemp, Smith, Craigie, McAulay, Thomson, Kemp

The obvious problem here is that there are two Kemps and only one such player was with 'Shire that season. The 'probable' team from the Saturday paper has the keeper, backs and forward line exactly as appeared and the half-back line as McLurg, Crichton, McCabe. The 'missing' player is McLurg who is mentioned in the match report. The only question is whether he started at right or left-half.

Can't help with the others but these are the league appearances as per the Athletic News Annual for 1933-34.

Auchencloss, JB 15
Black, W 25
Buchanan, J 24
Clemie, S 5
Craigie, A 23
Crawford, J 19
Crichton, W 38
Dorrans, O 1
Duff, J 5
Fraser, W 27
Finlayson, J 7
Hamilton, J 3
Kemp, R 33
Latimer, J 28
McAulay, A 19
McCabe, J 36
McLurg, C 19
McMillan, W 4
Nisbet, R 4
Smith, J 29
Thomson, G 22
Turnbull, J 17
Watson, W 15

Note: there are some spelling differences here between the annual and John Litster's disk.

Goalscorers
Smith 11
Craigie 10
Kemp 10
Turnbull 9
Fraser, McAulay, McMillan 3 each
Latimer 2
Crichton, Finlayson, McCabe 1 each
OG (Campbell, Q Park) 1

The match report v St Mirren hints at Latimer as the scorer. If your other scoring info fits with the above - i.e. if Latimer has only one goal then he's your man. I also suspect the "Newman" v Clyde was the ex-Killie keeper Sam Clemie who was only with East Stirling from Aug-Sep 1932. If Clemie + "Newman" in goal equals five appearances then he's the guy.
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Re: Online Archive

Postby soccerhistory » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:29 pm

I would strongly urge that sufficient time is taken to achieve a high level of accuracy on this project rather than rush into it and try to complete the data in the quickest possible time. I have been researching newspapers for line-ups, etc for over 30 years and can assure you that its not just a simple a matter of reading through volumes of a single regional/national newspaper such as the Herald. Unless there is a good local weekly (eg Falkirk Herald) I like to look at at least two sources and then check the discrepancies before I am happy with the outcome.

It is also the case that the existing published sources have varying degrees of accuracy: I know of at least one Breedon book (an English club) which is notorious for its errors. In general I research my own data for pre-war Scottish players for the stats that accompany the obituaries in Soccer History. I am a considerable way through assembling the line-ups for all WW2 games - I am publishing the appearances and goals on a season-by-season basis and will include the Southern League for 1941-42 in the issue that I am just about to complete. I would never use the Herald unless it was for a Glasgow team (in any case there is virtually no football coverage during WW2). I would use, for example, the Paisley Daily Express for St Mirren, Falkirk Herald for East Stirlingshire, etc, etc. If there are missing pre-war line-ups for midweek games these are usually in the Evening Citizen or the Evening Times for games with an afternoon kick off and in the Daily Record for matches with an evening kick off. Where copies of the Citizen football paper exist (not all the Saturday football editions are in the volumes in Colindale) this is often much better than the the Evening Times (with the Evening News often quite poor). Midweek games need particular attention as the teams are often not as published before the match due to players being delayed by work commitments, etc.

Some other problems to look out for: The football specials and Sundays often contain errors which are clearly a result of the copytaker not hearing what has been rung over from the ground - so these often need double checking (eg 'Hutton' may suddenly become 'Sutton', then there are the problems if you have a 'Stevenson' and a 'Stephenson' in the same squad, for example). You may also have to accept that at least some of the line-ups from the 1890s may just never be found. It is better to admit this than to 'guess' the line-up as I believe has happened with some of the earlier complete record type books. Goalscorers are another issue altogether. Players in Scotland did not wear numbers on their shirts pre-1939 (and I suspect not until at least 1946 as wartime pictures clearly show the shirts as unnumbered) and therefore unless the reporter knew the players well mistakes would occur. Then there is always the issue as to what is an own goal and what is not. Finally, I would not trust the stats in the likes of the Athletic News annuals for accuracy - the figures for appearances don't always even add up to the required amount of 11 x number of games played.
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Re: Online Archive

Postby bobby s » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:31 pm

Alan Brown wrote:Unfortunately the stats are in a 'Rothmans' style
format eg. numbers against players instead of 'names across the page'.


Alan, if you have that in a spreadsheet, email it to me because the lookup function can be used to transform the data to the required format. I'll do this.
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Re: Online Archive

Postby Alan Brown » Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:42 am

Bobby, I have e-mailed you the spreadsheet.

Ian makes some good points about research. Using The Herald archive at Google should be seen as a 'starting point' and not as
final statistics. Comparisons would need to be made with - for example - The Scottish League Players Records 1890-1939 book.

I seem to recall the AFS (must have been the early 1990s) asking members to carry out research on their behalf. I think they had plans
to publish the appearances and goals of the Scottish League, although initially this only included post war seasons. Did anything ever
come of that project? Does the research still exist? IIRC I was responsible for a few seasons of Dunfermline Athletic stats. If it was
still available then perhaps that could be used for statistical comparison.

Going back to the 1890s seasons, the appearances have been published for these (division one only) in an early IFFHS magazine.
I think the Scottish Football Historian Robert McCutcheon was involved in this. Would this mean that the 1890s have already been
researched? Or were the appearances taken from the Athletics News Annuals?

You may also have to accept that at least some of the line-ups from the 1890s may just never be found. It is better to admit this than to 'guess' the line-up as I believe has happened with some of the earlier complete record type books.


Yes I agree with the first part. for example, the line-ups for Vale of Leven 1891/92 are few and far between. I will need to get myself down to Dumbarton Library to
finish this. Which book(s) are you referring to as having 'guess' line-ups Ian?

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