Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

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Sat31March1928
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Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by Sat31March1928 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:14 am

I've been running some quality checks on my Scottish Cup results

In particular where I have two or more unbeaten teams in the same season

I had Airdrieonians unbeaten in 1919-20

Sat 24 Jan 1920 SC R1 Dundee 1 Airdrieonians 1

actual score SC R1 Dundee 1 Airdrieonians 0

See

http://londonhearts.com/scores/images/1 ... 012401.htm

Statto.com and soccerbase

have it as 1-1 as well

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/sc ... results/r1

http://www.soccerbase.com/tournaments/t ... urn_id=794
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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:55 am

But as Airdrie didn`t win the Cup in 1920, they must have lost at some stage in the comptition anyway therefore not going unbeaten during 1919-20. They lost 15 league games too.

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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by Scottish » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:41 am

There are two ways in which more than one club can be unbeaten in a Scottish Cup campaign. The first is if they lost on penalties - the result shows as a draw - but this only applies from 1989-90 onwards. Prior to that the only way for two or more sides to have been unbeaten is for a team to have been expelled from the competition.

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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:27 am

In 1909, Celtic, Rangers & West Calder all remained unbeaten in the Cup. Celtic & Rangers, of course, played 2 games in the Final before the competition was abandoned & West Calder scratched to Partick Thistle in the 1st Round after a 0-0 draw.

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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by Scottish » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:04 pm

Yes, I suppose if a team has scratched then it hasn't actually lost a match. In which case there must have been seasons in the early days when many sides didn't lose a game. Take 1878-79 for example. Pollokshaws Athletic withdrew before the start of the competition. Blythswood, Dennistoun, Girvan, Maybole Carrick, Star of Leven, Stranraer and the 4th RRV all scratched in the first round, there is no record of Clydesdale in the second round, Shotts scratched at the same stage, Glasgow University scratched in the third round, Thistle were disqualified after winning their third round tie, Rangers refused to replay the final and Vale of Leven won the trophy. That's twelve sides that never lost a match that season.

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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:35 pm

Pollokshaws Athletic scratched after being drawn to play Port Glasgow. Govanhill also scratched in the 1st Round that year, Glengowan were disqualified in the 2nd round after beating Airdrie 2-0(Airdrie were disqualified too). St.Clement`s(Dundee) scratched in the 2nd Round after drawing a bye in the 1st. I think the mystery of Clydesdale`s disappearance after their 1st Round walk over when Pollokshaws scratched is that they were more or less defunct by then. They scraped together their entrance fee for another three seasons but scratched every time and their last cup game was actually a 2-0 home defeat to Queen`s Park on 20th October 1877 in the 2nd Round. So that`s 15 clubs who didn`t lose a game in 1878-79.

In 1881-82, of the 18 ties drawn by the SFA in the GLASGOW & SUBURBS region, only 7 were played. Three clubs scratched(including Clydesdale) and 8 are noted as having disbanded. Clearly there was a difference between a club entering the competition and then scratching and one which has disbanded - one apparent difference being a club which scratched had probably paid its subscription & a disbanded club had not but I`m not sure why the SFA included the latter in the draw if they were no longer in existance.

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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by Sat31March1928 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:00 am

I've been through my result set and carried out the following changes

1876-10-21 R2 Portland 2 St Andrews 0 Changed from Edinburgh St Andrews. There were 2 'Edinburgh St Andrews' in this round.

1880-09-11 R1 Airdrie Excelsior 3 Drumpellier 0 - Changed Excelsior to Airdrie Excelsior. Airdrie Excelsior referenced in latter rounds.

1882-09-30 R2 Vale of Teith 5 West End (Dundee) 1 - Result was wrong way round From Glasgow Herald

1882-10-21 R3 Pollokshields Athletic 3 West Benhar 0 - Was recorded as Benhar

In 1888-89 two teams just 'disappear'.

1888-09-01 R1 Johnstown Harp 4 Woodvale 5 - Woodvale Disappear from the competition in latter rounds.
1888-09-22 R2 Glasgow University Bye - Glasgow University Disappear from the competition in latter rounds.

1889-10-19 R3 Wishaw Thistle 8 Linthouse 5 - 0 Changed to Wishaw Disqualified

1890-09-06 R1 Mid-Annandale 0 Rising Thistle(Lochmaben) 13 - Changed to Rising Thistle(Lochmaben) disqualified as Mid-Annandale in R2
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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by Scottish » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:21 am

Portland and St Andrew's were both Kilmarnock sides. Woodvale were drawn at home against 1st Renfrew RV in the second round but scratched. Glasgow University lost 4-0 away to Uddington Nov 3rd 1888.

The Herald for October 21st says Linthouse were 6-1 up at half-time and won 8-5

Herald for Sep 8th has Mid Ananndale 15 Rising Thistle 1

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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by Scottish » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:31 am

Note: Have edited above to include Herald info for two games.

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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by Sat31March1928 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:13 pm

I'll add Kilmarnock in brackets to Portland and St Andrew's and update 1888-89
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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by Scottish » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:40 pm

Sat31March1928 wrote:I'll add Kilmarnock in brackets to Portland and St Andrew's and update 1888-89
You also need to amend the Wishaw Thistle-Linthouse and Mid-Annandale - Rising Thistle (note also the result of 15-1, not 13-0). Regarding the other matches. I already have West Benhar in my records and the Vale of Teith result the right way round but I also have Excelsior as the same club as Airdrieonians, founded 1878 and changing the name in 1881.

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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:10 pm

1876-77. There were indeed 2 St.Andrews in the Cup that season. One, ass David says, was from Kilmarnock & played in the AYRSHIRE section,. I think the other was St.Andrews University Football Club trying their hand @ the soccer game playing in the EDINBURGH & EAST section. They didn`t repeat to the experiment and this was their one & only venture into the Cup.

1880-81. There was only one EXCELSIOR registerede with the SFA so there`s no need to add AIRDRIE to their name.

1882-83. Vale of Teith playing in the FORFARSHIRE & PERTHSHIRE section had a bye in the 1st Round, beat West End(Dundee) 5-1 in the 2nd and Our Boys(Dundee) 6-4 in the 3rd. The 4th Round was a national all in draw and I think they scratched before th draw was made. They never appearde in the Cup again.
I believe Benhar & West Benhar was one and the same club.
Do you know who Benhar, Airdrie, Airdrieonians, Shotts, Clarkston, Cambuslang, Wishaw & Royal Albert played & beat in the 2nd Round that season?

1888-89. Woodvale scratched to 1st RRV in the 2nd Round after a protested game(I don`t have the score I`m afraid). Glasgow University scratched to Uddingston so David`s 4-0 game may well have been an "ordinary" game played instead. Perhaps the Varsity wasn`t able to get up a full Xl or something like that.
I too have Linthouse 8, Wishaw 5 & no note of a disqualification. Linthouse lost 2-0 to 3rd LRV in the 4th Round.

1890-91. Mid-Annandale beat Rising Thistle 16-1 in the 1st Round & lost 1-9 to 5th KRV in the 2nd.

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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by Scottish » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:54 pm

Agree name was Excelsior and no need for town prefix but I include their results in Airdrieonians records.

I have Vale of Teith as losing 3-2 to Hurlford on Nov 11th in the fourth round and taking part for the next three seasons, losing 2-1 to Dunblane (Sep 8) in 83-84, beating Breadalbane 7-0 (Sep 13) then losing 5-1 to Hibernian (Oct 4) in 84-85, beating Oban 9-1 (Sep 12), receiving a walkover v Cowdenbeath (Oct 3) then losing 8-1 to Dundee Harp (Oct 24)in 85-86. Nothing after that until a re-formed club took part in the Qualifying Cup from 1902-03-1907-08 (with the exception of 1905-06)

1882-83 Round 2
Airdrie 2 Wishaw 1 (no date)
Cambuslang 3 Airdrieonians 1 (no date)
Royal Albert 3 Clarkston 5 (Sep 30)
West Benhar 10 Shotts 1 (Oct 7)

Don't know where I pulled that Glasgow Uni stuff from. Upon re-checking I find Uddingston played and lost a fourth round tie v Mossend Swifts on the date I gave.

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Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:16 pm

Thanks for the Lanarkshire results. My mistake, I missed Vale of Teith`s 1883-84 to 1885-86 results(agree with all your scores) because the SFA switched them from FORFARSHIRE to PERTHSHIRE & then a variety of sections & I didn`t keep up! Difficult especially when I eventually tracked Oban down to FIFE & PERTHSHIRE one year. Agree re Excelsior, it`s just Airdrieronians` original name.

John Meffen

Re: Scottish Cup Result Discrepencies

Post by John Meffen » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:40 pm

LEATHERSTOCKING wrote:1876-77..........I think the other was St.Andrews University Football Club trying their hand @ the soccer game playing in the EDINBURGH & EAST section. They didn`t repeat to the experiment and this was their one & only venture into the Cup.
According to the match report in the Falkirk Herald [which is on Londonhearts.com somewhere] Edinburgh St Andrews [1876], was a newly born club, born out of the ashes of the first Heart of Midlothian Club. The line up for the 1-0 victory over Grasshoppers including Tom Purdie of Hearts fame.

St Andrews - R.Winton; G.Purdie & D.Gronent?; R.Purdie & R.Rolly; D.Ross & D.Brunton, T.Purdie & J.Cochrane, G.Mitchell & J.Alexander.

Grasshoppers - T.Ure; A.Lapsley & J.King; J.Paterson & W.Anderson; T.Smith & H.McFie, W.Crombie & W.Forester, J.Mitchell & J.Clark.

Scorer - T.Purdie

John.

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