Debate over actual attendances

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Rob R
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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by Rob R » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:22 am

At Saracen Park/Ashfield Stadium in the 1960s I used to pay 1 Shilling at the boys gate and then inside the ground pay another 6d for the transfer to the stand. The stand had no outside turnstyles. For those of you to young 6d was 2 and a half pence in pre decimal days.

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:05 am

bobby s wrote:Are Celtic unique in this regard?
Although my personal view would be that such FOI requests are (morally if not literally) wasting police time: it turns-out that Rangers have the same policy, since their 2 crowds given as 49,000 (the infamous "4th tier world record") + 46,000 respectively were infact 42,000 + 36,000, going by this latest FOI request doing the rounds.

Image

As their crowd for the League Cup tie v East Fife was given as 38,000 but was infact 36,000, it's evdent that Rangers are another using "tickets sold" not "tickets used".

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by Scottish » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:14 am

I have to ask how "recorded by Strathclyde police" is actually recorded by Strathclyde police, given that it isn't a policeman inside turnstile booths. In any case there is now a "new world record" from last Saturday which will also no doubt be the subject of an FOI request. If every single request is going to be granted (and there seems no reason why not) then it might be easier and cheaper for Strathclyde police to issue figures for every game within their jurisdiction. We might then get some answer as to the discrepancies between club & police figures. I am also doubtful as to the precise figures given by the police for such large numbers when in other instances with smaller numbers - protest marches for example - they can only issue an approximate round figure count. In the meantime I don't know about anyone else but I am going to record the figures as issued by clubs & leagues rather than the police.

PS AFAIK Rangers have always used tickets sold rather than tickets used.

PPS In this war of the crowds which seems to be developing this season there is no doubt in my mind that no matter which way it's added up that so far Rangers are around 2,000 per game ahead of Celtic. In terms of home supporters that figure will be greater as far more away fans will visit Celtic Park this season than Ibrox.

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:04 pm

I'd agree totally regarding the continued use of the 'public' figures for statistical purposes - it's the only option.

Presumably the figures recorded by Strathclyde Police are, logically, the "number of people present" taken from turnstiles counts etc. Presumably provided by the club.

Possibly it's a police requirement at large attendances/SPL level?

As you say their precision to 1 figure shows they're not estimates like at demonstrations.

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by Scottish » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:50 pm

Usually you can tell from TV whether or not a ground is as full as official figures proclaim but I haven't seen any footage of Ibrox this season so far. But yes I'd agree the figures have to be provided by the club. Differences likes these - roughly 7,000 & 9,000 respectively - are too large to be explained by non-attending season ticket holders. It's suggesting over 20% of ST holders haven't turned up which is way too high. If there is any footage of Ibrox it should be relatively easy to discern (particularly in the first instance) how full the ground was.

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by Sat31March1928 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:01 pm

I'm working with David Speed to get a 'definitive' list of Hearts Home attendances.

The public figure for a lot of seasons ONLY included people coming in through the turnstiles.

Complimentary tickets and others not going through turnstiles were excluded. These numbers are in the Clubs minute books IIRC.
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by Scottish » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:45 pm

Richard Cairns sends this:

"The consensus appears to be that the limit on grandstand season tickets at Kilmarnock was imposed by the SFA i.e. KFC were only allowed to sell a set percentage of seats in the stand and had to leave a certain percentage for visiting fans, hangers-on etc"

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by ScottishFA » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:27 pm

The SFA gets enough stick as it is, so it is worth clarifying this was a Scottish Football League rule. I've got some old SFL handbooks, the earliest being 1907, and it states:

The clubs on the membership of the League shall be entitled to issue only one thousand tickets for members, season ticket holders, and complimentary tickets in all for League Matches.

Fast forward to 1973, and the wording has changed slightly but the principle is still the same:

The clubs in the membership of the League shall be entitled to issue only one thousand tickets for members, season ticket holders, and complimentary tickets in all for League Championship and League Cup Matches unless the special permission of the Management Committee has been given, and in which case the numbers in excess of 1,000 tickets issued will require to be returned in the gross gate and divided with the visiting club.

Of course all this became redundant when the requirement to split the gate money was ended.

For Scottish Cup matches, the SFA applied the same logic, and there was a footnote to their rules stating: Club membership tickets do not come within the category of gate money.

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by MadMac » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:37 pm

ScottishFA wrote:The SFA gets enough stick as it is, so it is worth clarifying this was a Scottish Football League rule. I've got some old SFL handbooks, the earliest being 1907, and it states:

The clubs on the membership of the League shall be entitled to issue only one thousand tickets for members, season ticket holders, and complimentary tickets in all for League Matches.
So, the memory still works, then.....

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by MadMac » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:41 am

Last night, I was at whatever St. Mirren's stadium is called. Couple of observations on the attendance:

1) Overall, announced as 4096 (or something in that vicinity).

2) 900 + in what seemed, to me, to be a pretty full away end.

Methinks they picked their calculator up in the clearance sale at Craig Whyte's accountants.....

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by Scottish » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:28 pm

The away end holds 1,654 according to the St Mirren website but it doesn't answer the question as to why they'd want to issue a figure lower than those present. As I've said earlier there is little incentive for clubs to do so and every incentive (sponsors, advertising) to demonstrate they can draw larger crowds. Policing is the only thing they can save on by showing a smaller crowd but that only applies when you're talking thousands of a difference, not hundreds.

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by Gorgiewave » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:22 pm

Whatever the ethics of all this, it appears Rangers added 12,235 to their actual attendance against Cowdenbeath at the weekend, thus counting all season tickets whether present or not. That is to say, they reported very nearly 177% of the true figure. Though this percentage is lower than the 1972 figures, it is very egregious and must be noticeable to those in the ground who pay attention to these things.

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by Scottish » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:49 am

In Brazil there’s a finance bulletin for every match which shows the number of places available and at what price for various parts of the ground, the number unsold and the number sold. Various deductions like pitch rental, public safety, local taxes, anti-doping fee, referee and officials expenses, security for officials, transport, police etc. are all listed with costs, submitted to the confederation (CBF), scanned and published on their website a few days later.

There’s also a docket which contains the name of competition, teams, date, scheduled kick-off and ground. Then referee, both assistants, fourth official and assessor.

That’s followed by the times both teams took the field, kick-off time, added time, end of first half, score, time both teams re-appeared, time of second half kick-off, added time, full time, result.

There’s a full list of registered players of both teams (not just those on the pitch or the bench), with full names, whether first team squad or reserve and whether professional or amateur, all with CBF registration number.

There’s a further scale of referees document which shows the names of the various officials and the level at which they can operate – e.g. Division One, or Two or as high as FIFA. That document also contains teams, phase of competition, division, game number, fixture round, date, kick-off, stadium, town/city and state. That same information appears on a fourth document listing any changes to the original fixture – date, time venue etc. – and the reasons for the change (usually for TV as just about every match in the top two tiers is televised and many in the third also)

That’s a wealth of information for each and every match which has to be signed off by the home club and as the details usually appear on the confederation website within a couple of days, it must be done very quickly. These match details aren’t just required from league matches. Women’s, youth and cup-ties which come under the auspices of the CBF also submit identical information.

Though I’m not claiming it’s a perfect system and I’ve certainly seen discrepancies such as different types of documents submitted and some, even at the top level, in ink, it is perhaps one reason why Brazil’s league attendances seem to be so poor - leaving Europe aside, the top flight of the Brazilian league now lags behind Mexico, India, USA, China, Argentina & Japan. Including the big six European leagues of Germany, England, Spain, Italy, France and Holland, it means that the country which has produced World Cup winners five times is now only the thirteenth best supported league in the world (fourteenth if you include 2 Bundesliga) - if official figures are correct.

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by Scottish » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:06 am

I don't know if I've mentioned this before or not, but the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona don't seem to have any difficulty in counting the exact number of spectators inside their grounds and they have to count a helluva lot more than the OF.

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Re: Debate over actual attendances

Post by the hibLOG » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:03 am

scottish wrote:I don't know if I've mentioned this before or not, but the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona don't seem to have any difficulty in counting the exact number of spectators inside their grounds and they have to count a helluva lot more than the OF.
Well, they've probably got some really sophisticated technology like, you know, counters on each turnstile, the kind of thing that's only been available in Scotland for, what, 60 years or something?
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