SPFL & TV

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Rob R
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SPFL & TV

Post by Rob R » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:58 am

I don't know how much it would effect all clubs in Scotland , but I have to agree with Peter Lawell about scrapping the TV deal and going back to Saturday 3PM kick off's . I'm sure crowd figures would go up . Would there be that much difference between a highlight package and what they get now for live TV, I dont have any figures for it . The real smaller club's it might effect as they don't have to play Friday's or Monday's so there crowds would not differ and I think they get a TV share out. (do they ?). What do others think ? Can you enlighten me.

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by ScottishFA » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:55 am

This comes just a few weeks after Celtic signed a £29 million kit deal. Celtic are also halfway through a £4.5 million shirt sponsorship deal with Magners.

Would the chief executive care to explain to their commercial partners that their kit/adverts will not be seen on TV?

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by Scottish » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:08 pm

Rob R wrote: I'm sure crowd figures would go up . .
In addition to Andy's point, the vast majority of Premiership clubs are only shown live when Celtic are in town. Rarely otherwise. I doubt if it's going to put anything on their gates. The smaller grounds - Inverness, Ross County, Hamilton, St Mirren - are almost full for Celtic games anyway.

Getting a better deal and league sponsorship is the priority surely. And the second won't come without live TV coverage.

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by Skyline Drifter » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:08 pm

The idea that anyone other than Celtic, and perhaps Rangers, would benefit financially from the tv deal being scrapped is simply ludicrous. I'm far from convinced that either of them would either for that matter but he's got to be seen to say the right things I suppose.

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:07 am

Ultimately the domestic TV deal is currently worth £13M, and therefore represents over 2/3 of entire league income. In previous circumstances SPFL could have taken in a further £3M for naming rights, and they currently receive a couple of million for overseas TV rights and a few million from other sources (UEFA solidarity payment, pool money, small endorsements for official balls/drinks/sticker albums, radio rights, and so on).


Lawell's claim is that Celtic's £2M TV cash for winning the league... apparently Aberdeen are already written-off!... would be outweighed by all the home games being at 3pm on Saturdays. Of course a lot of their games can't be 3pm on Saturdays anyway as they got cuffed into the Europa League necessitating several moves to Sunday. But nonetheless, some other games are moved for TV.

As a crude figure he's saying more than 100,000 extra people would attend the games, if held on Saturday at 3pm? I say a crude figure - an average income of £20 per fan per game would equate to £2M.

Put simply - I don't believe it. Very few Celtic home games are televised. This season they've only had 3 weekend home games moved by live TV coverage, not EL: the flag raising v Dundee Utd plus 2 home games v Aberdeen. By the end of the season it might be about 5... Last season when they played in Champions League they had 6 home games on Sundays, or lunchtime or teatime on Saturdays, but I don't know if all 6 were moved for TV.

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by bobby s » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:27 pm

This is a huge bug bear of mine.

at one point something like 86 of 87 Celtic away league games were televised and over a five year period and more Hibs home league games were shown live than from Parkhead over the same period.

Now, I think telly is a necessary evil for much of the reasons already given but we have to ensure there is an equitable distribution of games otherwise it strengthens celtic and weakens everyone else.

As it stands [and it will be worse when the Rangers ever get back to the SPL] Celtic fans can watch about half their games on the telly, and the home club playing celtic takes the hit on the attendance.

All the other clubs have less exposure, whilst more impact on their home crowds if we assume that live television does not positively impact on attendance at the ground which I think is a reasonable assumption.

It's strengthening Celtic's brand whilst weakening everyone else's. Frankly IMHO it is mental the SPL clubs agreed to this.
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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by lbb » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:32 pm

Lawwell should have a word with the couple of clowns that negotiated it.

Image

As said above, the majority of Celtic's home league games are at 3pm on a Saturday anyway. I believe their biggest home league attendance so far this season was the recent match against Aberdeen - which was Sunday at 1pm and live on TV.

There is undoubtedly anger and frustration at the Scottish TV deal in comparison to the money in England but getting rid of it completely is desperate and not very practical.

In any case, it's the Rangers newco that suffers the most in the TV deal, being paid something like £2,000 and a packet of digestive biscuits for the pleasure of nearly every away game being rearranged. There's only one club getting shafted in the TV deal and it ain't Celtic. But that was always the point.

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by Scottish » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:16 pm

lbb wrote:.

In any case, it's the Rangers newco that suffers the most in the TV deal, being paid something like £2,000 and a packet of digestive biscuits for the pleasure of nearly every away game being rearranged.
Be fair. It means fans don't have to travel t.o watch them. They can endure the misery from the comfort of their own home

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by sureitsza » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:01 pm

[quote]As said above, the majority of Celtic's home league games are at 3pm on a Saturday anyway. I believe their biggest home league attendance so far this season was the recent match against Aberdeen - which was Sunday at 1pm and live on TV. [quote]

You will be surprised to learn that Celtic have had only three home (and 0 away) games on a Saturday at 3pm this season with only one more scheduled before the split.

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by Skyline Drifter » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:21 pm

lbb wrote: As said above, the majority of Celtic's home league games are at 3pm on a Saturday anyway. I believe their biggest home league attendance so far this season was the recent match against Aberdeen - which was Sunday at 1pm and live on TV.

There is undoubtedly anger and frustration at the Scottish TV deal in comparison to the money in England but getting rid of it completely is desperate and not very practical.

In any case, it's the Rangers newco that suffers the most in the TV deal, being paid something like £2,000 and a packet of digestive biscuits for the pleasure of nearly every away game being rearranged. There's only one club getting shafted in the TV deal and it ain't Celtic. But that was always the point.
I fail to see how that causes an suffering to Rangers (the football club) at all? It undeniably causes great inconvenience to their supporters but that's not the same thing. In fact there's little inconvenience to Rangers who benefit greatly from additional prize money at this level compared to a few years ago whilst actually having very few home matches moved for tv.

The club inconvenience is to the opposition sides who have to play them away from the weekend and probably suffer reduced crowds as a result. Our two home games against Rangers this season have ended up being a Friday night (fortnight before Xmas) and a Thursday night in April which has in turn necessitated the moving of our crunch head to head with Falkirk at home to the Sunday. In contrast Rangers two home games against us have been a Saturday and Tuesday night and the latter was only a Tuesday because it got moved due to being initially scheduled for Scottish Cup 6th round day, not because of tv.

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by lbb » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:02 pm

Eh?

It is an inconvenience because they and their supporters are shifted around at will - three successive Friday nights, for example - in return for next to no financial gain. They and their supporters are meant to pick up the majority of the subs required to pay for the contract, accept the majority of inconvenience for live games at that level and then just suck it down when the money is distributed.

How many times have Queens been inconvenienced? And how many times have the Rangers newco been inconvenienced? There's your answer.

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by Skyline Drifter » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:58 am

lbb wrote:Eh?

It is an inconvenience because they and their supporters are shifted around at will - three successive Friday nights, for example - in return for next to no financial gain. They and their supporters are meant to pick up the majority of the subs required to pay for the contract, accept the majority of inconvenience for live games at that level and then just suck it down when the money is distributed.

How many times have Queens been inconvenienced? And how many times have the Rangers newco been inconvenienced? There's your answer.
I already acknowledged it causes great inconvenience to the Rangers supporters. More so than any other group of supporters at this level.

The supporters are not the same thing as the football club though. There's no particular inconvenience to the club. The players are full time. They are travelling to the same number of away games as everyone else. There are no particular extra costs to them travelling on a different day. "shifting around at will" isn't a great problem for a full time football club, particularly at away games when they don't even depend on part time staff at all.

If you really think there is "next to no financial gain" then you should have been here before the new SPFL distribution model. Or maybe a benefit of at least six figures in the league payout just counts as "next to no financial gain" in the eyes of Rangers fans. I guess maybe it is but if the club had an attitude of looking after the pennies before the pounds maybe it wouldn't have gotten into the mess it's currently in. For the rest of us a six figure benefit is worthwhile.

How many home Rangers league games have actually been moved for tv? Just the four Edinburgh team games is it (the first one against Hearts was a sell out anyway as I recall so no financial loss there)? A scenario which probably won't exist next season as Hearts will be gone and either you will be or Hibs will be probably (granted Motherwell or whoever may stay up instead). Chances are next year, unless there's a title to be clinched or something, Rangers will have no home games moved.

Queens have effectively had four home league games moved for tv which is slightly surprising. Thought we might have had more given our league position. And even one of those (the upcoming Rangers one in April) was only moved from one midweek date to another. Genuinely surprised none of our home games against the Edinburgh sides were picked up. We've probably not suffered massively financially as a result. Gate against Raith was definitely down by a few hundred whilst we probably lost some potential customers against Rangers and it remains to be seen what effect moving the Falkirk game to a Sunday will have.

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by Aten » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:27 pm

I do not know what the relationship between TV Broadcasters and other Associations are so I am not sure if it is as insidious as it is here in the UK. My worry is in the not too distant future, TV Broadcasters will end up running football.

Lawwell is between a rock and a hard place, his preference might be for 3pm Saturday kick-offs but he needs broadcasting to satisfy his club’s sponsors. However he has a valid point regarding scheduling times and the havoc that causes to kick-off times. Once again ICT have been handed another ludicrous kick-off time for the Cup Semi-final because it suits the broadcasters. It is absolutely stupid that, for example, Glasgow clubs have to travel to Inverness or Dingwall for a noon kick-off. The same applies in reverse.

But this has come about because the broadcasters priority lies with English games and means the Scottish games get the fag end of what slots are left. In reality the broadcasters have no interest in televising Scottish matches – it is a means to an end, to get subscribers to watch English games. In a way a basic old supermarket trick, utilising a loss leader to get you into the store.

However what concerns me more than anything else is the increasing influence Broadcasters are having on the game. The relationship between Sky and the EPL is symbiotic and neither wishes to upset the other. But the most dangerous aspect is the ludicrous amount of money the Broadcasters are throwing at the EPL. Far from being the “greatest league in the world” it has become boring, predictable, cynical and dishonest and it is all down to money. Furthermore the Broadcasters are no longer interested in the game for the game’s sake but controversy - even to the point of creating it. It thrives on controversy and this is why referees are looking in a bad light because they are now under intolerable pressure to get things right that they are making more and more mistakes at crucial moments.

Not only that, in the eyes of the Broadcasters, the game is ruined because a player has been sent off. It is not the referee’s fault if he rightly dismisses a player, it is the player’s own stupidity for breaking the rules. The referee’s have also been accused of turning the game into a non contact sport. Wrong! It is the greedy cynical clubs and the greedy dishonest players who have done it. Sadly the print media is starting to toe the same blame line as the Broadcasters. The number of ex-players acting as pundits who condone these actions in astonishing, justification being given in the phrase “you’re entitled to go down if you are touched”.

The influence of Broadcasters will reach the point whereby the camera will replace referees. It is already no longer the case that the referee is the sole decision maker on the park. The clamour for technology to be used is only going to increase and when that happens a referee becomes superfluous. Either we accept the referee has called it as he sees it in real time or we start writing footballs obituary.

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by Scottish » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:37 pm

Couldn't agree more with you about ex-players condoning cheating or gamesmanship but couldn't agree less re technology.

Regarding TV & other associations, it's just as bad elsewhere if not worse than here. In Spain the advance notice given of day and kick-off time for a televised match is much shorter than in the UK. Noon kick-offs for teams travelling long distances are plain wrong and there should be a clause somewhere in TV contracts stating that matches involving journeys of X miles shouldn't be subject to this. In practice this would mean Celtic trips to the Highlands or Highland clubs in neutral cup ties.

It would be wrong to think this just happens in Scotland though. Last Saturday Bournemouth played Middlesbrough in an important Championship match which was televised live. Kick-off was 12-15. Middlesbrough to Bournemouth is almost twice the distance of Inverness to Glasgow.

Technology is, I believe, the friend of football, not its enemy. Cricket umpires aren't redundant just because they have technological aids. Rugby union referees are, if anything, more respected because they can explain decisions immediately via mic. Tennis involves a maximum of four players at any given time yet can have up to eleven officials per match PLUS technology.

In none of these sports has the main official been rendered "superfluous" and I would argue that in every instance the sport has been enhanced. No obituaries have been written for any of the above. Football would be no different.

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Re: SPFL & TV

Post by Aten » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:33 pm

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one Scottish.

If technology is confined to matters of fact then I could just about live with that. For example, goal-line technology, that is factual – did the ball cross the line or not. However when it impinges on maters that are subjective, then forget it. Unfortunately much of the recent clamour is for technology to interfere in subjective matters even to the extent that managers be given an appeal process to be used a certain number of times during the game. God help us if that happens with the amount of cynicism already around.

As I understand it with cricket and tennis, technology is only used on matters of fact. I cannot say for certain what the boundaries are for rugby. Despite living in Wales for more than 35 years it is and will remain a mysterious and incomprehensible game.

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