Researchers Required!

The place to discuss Scottish football
Partick Thistle
Posts: 239
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:54 am
Contact:

Re: Researchers Required!

Post by Partick Thistle » Sun May 17, 2015 4:52 pm

Alan, it's even worse for us Thistle fans so a wee shout-out is very welcome indeed!

I've got the PTFC stats 1919-20 to 1923-24 (bar a couple of niggles which I'll attempt to sort out at the Mitchell). Can you take the latest excel files? (xlsx)

If you PM me your e-mail I'll send them over.
William

Alan Brown
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:08 pm
Location: Kilwinning
Contact:

Re: Researchers Required!

Post by Alan Brown » Mon May 18, 2015 9:55 pm

william, I have sent you a pm. Could you possibly convert the file to office 2003?

Alan

Partick Thistle
Posts: 239
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:54 am
Contact:

Re: Researchers Required!

Post by Partick Thistle » Wed May 20, 2015 7:32 pm

Alan Brown wrote:Thanks to everyone that has responded to my request for help with research. My plan would be for anyone interested to take on a season from the years we are working on. This would involve researching the following details for each league, cup and if possible local competitions: date, half times, results, goalscorers, attendances, referees, line-ups as well as details of any players that were sent off. The first names of players would then be added and appearances/goals checked against Steve Emms research. A two page written review of each season as well as details of internationals will also be included. Current research is covering the 1919-1924 period and afterwards we will go back to the start (1890-1900) and this is where the help is needed most! Thanks to the guys that offered to help out with the details of individual clubs, that will be a great contribution.
Alan
Gents,

I doff my cap to you all for this historic undertaking.

Alan, when you did your First World War book, I had no idea that it was Volume 1 of this great master-plan. I think I now need to get myself a copy as I feel the need for a complete set might be oncoming!

I thought I'd lay down some thoughts and ideas on the project, see what others think.

I'm thinking that, given the ground breaking and important nature of the task at hand, it might it be worth considering going just that little bit further to lay down a standard for Scottish football history?

There probably isn't one of us on here who has started massive projects then thought, hang on, och I wish I'd done this that or the next thing, only to go back and re-trace the footsteps.

That said, I'm not completely sure what you are / aren't intending, so some of these thoughts may be redundant already.

In any case, better oot than in, so here goes...


date

Dawdle.


half times

Easy.


results

Nae bother.


goalscorers

I think Arnie Baldursson and Gudmundur Magnusson from lfchistory.net have the right idea:

"When Arnie and Gudmundur went through their sources, they didn't treat any total number of goals or games attributed to players as untouchable. They challenged the sources behind the stats, looking at them in detail and correcting those that were clearly not correctly documented either in books or on the Net. There were no official Football League records as such for goalscorers and not uncommon that scorers would vary from source to source especially in the first decades of the club‘s existence. In those instances LFChistory.net has compared reports from local papers such as the Echo, Daily Post, Mercury and Courier and determined which was the most convincing as well as keeping in mind no newspaper is infallible."

I have started to note every "alternative" goalscorer in side notes, giving the actual goal scorer credit to the most convincing report. Of course, it's not always so black and white. In the event of "no clear verdict" I've resorted to the view of the existing club expert, in my case that which is already documented in the Partick Thistle history book.

Also, as I said, given the ground breaking and important nature of the task at hand might it be worth going just that little bit further and noting the times (precise if known or by half otherwise) with goal sequence?

A random example from my database [01.04.1922 Heart of Midlothian [a] W3-1 (SFL First Division - game 36)], 2 columns (1 for each team) and, personally, goals always described with Thistle's first:
James McColl (1-0, 10 mins); Jimmy Kinloch (2-0, 13 mins); Jimmy Kinloch (3-1, 87 mins)
Patrick Crossan (2-1, pen 2nd half)


attendances

Long dis-satisfied with my attendance figures, around a year ago I revamped my own guidelines in an attempt to turn the variances of press estimates from a negative into a positive.

Again, in a separate side column, I've been noting every press estimate I see.

My "single figure" attendance policy only really has two options: i) To list the exact attendance figure if known or ii) To list the "average" press estimate, which I round to the nearest 500 to keep it looking like an estimate.

With this policy, I feel that my "single figure" is generally closer to the truth than relying on any single paper.

I am also quite happy for the figure to be adjusted at any time subject to the addition of newly discovered estimates from yet more press.

I always know where I stand because I've recorded where I've been before.

It perhaps sounds like a lot of bother but I find it a "nothing" task in reality - I'm there already scanning for stats info, and taking a note of an attendance takes just a few seconds as I go.

An example of such a side column entry [17.12.1921 Clyde [h] W2-1 (SFL First Division - game 21)] where SC = Scotsman, SP = Sunday Post, GH = Glasgow Herald, would simply be:

10000 (SC); 14000 (SP); 12000 (GH)

From this, I would allocate an attendance figure of 12,000.


referees

Speaking for my own personal needs, I'm wondering if you're creating a unique i.d. for the refs from down the years?

Obviously, we're always encountering loads of spelling mistakes, suspected mis-heard short-hand etc.

I often worry that I might take liberties and wrongly mistreat refereeing brothers by doing so.

In this latest 1919-24 period I changed:
H. Russell (Glasgow) to M. Russell (Glasgow)
M. Quinn (Belshill) to W. Quinn (Belshill)
T. Craigmyle (Aberdeen) to P. Craigmyle (Aberdeen)
R. J. Sinclair (Thornliebank) to J. S. Sinclair (Thornliebank)
W. P. Campbell (Dundee) to W. F. Campbell (Dundee)

Then there was this undecided:
Is it J. J. Grant (Edinburgh) or J. L. Grant (Edinburgh)?

Then there was
W. Bell (Hamilton)
W. Bell (Motherwell)

He was listed as Hamilton before and after some listings at Motherwell which doesn't make sense.


line-ups

Ooft. The big one. What to do with those darned contradicting press reports? Does anyone have a view on which paper has proved to be the most reliable through the years? I have no great answers or techniques.

I make sure all the players in the report are in the line-ups and keep an eye out for crucial team news / players missing on representative duty etc. which may show one line-up to be right and another to be wrong.

Again, I'm wondering if you're creating a unique i.d. for the players from down the years? A massive job, if so, taking a lot of concentration and precision work. Would pay dividends on an online database in some far off future year?

My final thought on this area would be in the naming of players in the line-ups; that I would love to see them listed as they were talked.

I think, for general interest fans of the game, these works would benefit greatly from the warmth of Patsy Gallacher (Celtic), Sandy Archibald (Rangers), Bobby Templeton (Hibernian), Willie Bulloch (Partick Thistle), Jock Hutton (Aberdeen), Bob Preston (Hearts), Syd Puddefoot (Falkirk) etc etc.

I make it my business to refer to club expert sites such as Celtic Wiki, London Hearts, Fitba Stats, Arab Archive etc for as much guidance as possible on these names.

I'm sure all the club specialists on here would be happy to create the common name for each of their boys.

Also, no matter how far you've gone, it's so easy to "find and replace" en masse on excel.


details of any players that were sent off.

Can never be guaranteed to catch them all - the task is as straight forward as the press reports allow, but a great addition and should probably get well over the 90% mark, until we get to the 100% modern-era.


Listen, whatever you decide to do, I think it will be brilliant and look forward to seeing the first books. If required, I'll be there for the long haul to do my bit for the 125 Jags seasons!
William

Alan Brown
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:08 pm
Location: Kilwinning
Contact:

Re: Researchers Required!

Post by Alan Brown » Thu May 21, 2015 3:33 pm

Thanks for the input William. I will take your points one at a time.
Alan, when you did your First World War book, I had no idea that it was Volume 1 of this great master-plan. I think I now need to get myself a copy as I feel the need for a complete set might be oncoming!
My book 'World War One and Scottish Football' was published last May and is still available for the princely sum of £10 plus £2 postage. E-Mail me your address and I will get a copy off to you for your approval.
goalscorers
This is the real problem area for us researchers. I would normally do the original research from newspapers, and then if available compare these goalscorers to any records of club historians/books. The issue of 'when is an own goal an own goal' is also very problematic as there are no real guidelines. This could be solved by indicating in a footnote with a description of the incident that an opponent touched the ball before it entered the goal. It's a good idea to try to use the correct scoring sequence where possible. Regarding goaltimes, I am not taking a note of them at the moment, as space in the book is at a minimum.
attendances
There will always be differences in attendance figures when using estimates, so I think using the David Ross figures is best as he has done more research into the subject than anyone else.
referees
I don't keep a reference system for the referees, but it's something that could be considered. Errors do creep in but they are usually easy to sort out.
In this latest 1919-24 period I changed:
H. Russell (Glasgow) to M. Russell (Glasgow)
M. Quinn (Belshill) to W. Quinn (Belshill)
T. Craigmyle (Aberdeen) to P. Craigmyle (Aberdeen)
R. J. Sinclair (Thornliebank) to J. S. Sinclair (Thornliebank)
W. P. Campbell (Dundee) to W. F. Campbell (Dundee)

Then there was this undecided:
Is it J. J. Grant (Edinburgh) or J. L. Grant (Edinburgh)?

Then there was
W. Bell (Hamilton)
W. Bell (Motherwell)

He was listed as Hamilton before and after some listings at Motherwell which doesn't make sense.
I have J.L.Grant. With W.Bell is there the possibility that he moved house from Hamilton to Motherwell? This could be the simple explanation. There have been a couple which have confused me. T.Dougray (Bellshill or Nitshill)?
line-ups
I don't have unique player id's. I use Steve Emms excellent books 'Scottish League Players Records' and where there is a mismatch of data I then turn to John Litster's spreadsheets to help iron out any differences.
My final thought on this area would be in the naming of players in the line-ups; that I would love to see them listed as they were talked.
For my last book I used the full first names of the players. But if an online archive is ever on the agenda then a 'commonly known as' field could be added such as the ENFA does.
details of any players that were sent off
Sometimes when reading though a match report you can easily overlook a sending off. A solution for this is reading the reports of the Scottish League committee meetings which were normally published in the Herald/Scotsman the following day. They normally mention any players that have been in trouble with the authorities.

it will be interesting to hear everyone else's thoughts on the subject.

Alan

LEATHERSTOCKING
Posts: 1611
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:11 pm
Contact:

Re: Researchers Required!

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Thu May 21, 2015 5:47 pm

In my Scottish Cup Finals book HOW THE CUP WAS WON(hurry, hurry while stocks last) I listed both teams & referee with the first name as they were known(Jamie, Jimmy) and then in the alphabetical listing had them with their formal first name(James) with their middle initial(s) & their used name eg. MONEY Israel C.(Campbell), McKINLAY Thomas V.(Tosh). One off track point: when I was compiling league cross-stistics from the 1890-91 season onwards I listed the clubs in the order they finished rather than alphabetically which seemed more logical and made it much easier to research various records like most consecutive defeats/wins etc.

Alan Brown
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:08 pm
Location: Kilwinning
Contact:

Re: Researchers Required!

Post by Alan Brown » Tue May 26, 2015 11:33 am

How The Cup Was Won is a good addition to any book collection and I have my copy already.

Alan

Angusfifer
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:49 am
Contact:

Re: Researchers Required!

Post by Angusfifer » Tue May 26, 2015 2:32 pm

Some great advice in this thread for seasoned anoraks like myself.
I've been kicking myself recently for not making note of my sources but after 35 years of researching East Fife stats I don't fancy starting all over again...

Alan Brown
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:08 pm
Location: Kilwinning
Contact:

Re: Researchers Required!

Post by Alan Brown » Tue May 26, 2015 3:58 pm

35 years? That's amazing. Is there a book on the horizon Angusfifer?
Regarding our research project, only the results, goalscorers and attendances will be included for Division Two. Unfortunately at the moment it is be impossible for me to travel around the country to all the local libraries and carry out research for the Division Two clubs. In an ideal world it would be good to include the complete record of all clubs, maybe if someone on here knows John Litster really well and could use their powers of persuasion ...

Alan

Aten
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:59 pm
Contact:

Re: Researchers Required!

Post by Aten » Thu May 28, 2015 5:53 pm

Alan, unfortunately I am not in a position to help you with any pre 1945/46-research information that you will not be likely to have. However, if and when you reach the post-war seasons I may be able to help out; see my post on the “Wee Red Book”.

If you want to, you would be able to relate re-arranged fixtures to the postponed original fixture list thus adding a little bit more information to the overall concept. If you have something like that in mind you I could either scan the fixtures to you or you could borrow the actual books themselves, whatever suits you best.

Good luck on your project and put me down for a copy.

Peter.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests