1929 Scotland match in the Netherlands - Who did they play?

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Peter Heid
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1929 Scotland match in the Netherlands - Who did they play?

Post by Peter Heid » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:00 pm

I was reading (with great interest) the 'Back of the Net' article entitled, “If the cap fits…” discussing the criteria for granting or withholding recognition to international matches.

One passage reads:
“In 1929, in their first continental trip, Scotland played two games in Norway against regional selects. The Scots count one of those as a full international while the Norwegians count neither. The tour continued in Germany and the match played there is counted by both countries as bona fide. But the next match, in the Netherlands, is counted only by Scotland but not by the Dutch. Why? Because the Dutch were an amateur team and wouldn't count a match against professionals as official.”

Now, I am clear about the games in Norway being against Western and Eastern regional selects as distinct from Norway’s full national side but I am unclear as to the identity of the Dutch team in question.

Was the Netherlands full national team an all-amateur affair in those days?

Or was Scotland’s match in 1929 against a separate ‘Netherlands Amateurs’ side?

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Post by Scottish » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:45 pm

It was a fully representative side. Four of the Dutch players made their official international debuts four days after the Scotland match in a game against Sweden in Stockholm.

Every single one of the Dutch side was capped officially and collectively earned many more caps (over 160) than the Scottish selection (just over 60).

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Post by Sat31March1928 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:48 pm

Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

Peter Heid
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Thanks for the info, guys

Post by Peter Heid » Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:27 pm

In that case, I think that the International Federation of Football History and Statistics, who are currently deciding which international matches will or will not be recognised by FIFA, will grant official recognition to this game and perhaps expect the Dutch FA to do the same. On the other hand, I reckon they will give pretty short shrift to the match in Norway on 28 May 1929 and perhaps expect the SFA to drop it from their official record.

I e-mailed the IFFHS about the 1935 Silver Jubilee International and a Dr. Alfredo Pöge replied that they had not got to that one yet and that"many hundred matches are worldwide to delete and some new to admit. We have to take into consideration the obliging rules, besides we check in both involved countries each and in FIFA archive. What book authors publish is for us insignificant."

"Many hundred"!! Football history will never be the same again! But, whether everyone chooses to abide by it or not, it makes sense for FIFA to arrive at an official record of the whole international game.

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Post by Scottish » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:27 pm

While I would agree that an official record would be welcome I think the attitude of the IFFHS leaves a lot to be desired. They are not the only statistical body operating but they appear to be the most dogmatic. They are also contradictory. For example they say that the Canadian tours of the 1880s and 1890s cannot be considered as full internationals as there was no Canadian FA in existence. Yet they accept the Scotland V England game of 1872 as the first international even though - as has been pointed out many times - there was no Scottish FA in existence!

I'm not sure of the extent of their tie-up with FIFA but they claim that FIFA has sanctioned a decision to include all England and Wales amateur internationals againt non-British international sides up until 1924 are to be deemed full internationals even though quite clearly the amateur elevens are nowhere near the strength of the recognised national teams of the day and indeed the England amateur international team was formed as a result of players at that level being (with some notable exceptions) no longer good enough to be selected for the full national side. They say "Therefore, until 1924, all full international played by the English (as well as Welsh) amateur national teams against non-British national teams until 1924 are to be considered as full "A" internationals by both sides, and take into consideration at the determination of all records."

This takes us into the ludicrous situation whereby the FA in England say their first match v France was a 4-1 win in Paris in 1923, according to the IFFHS it was a 15-0 win by the amateur side in 1906!

The top international goalscorer for England would no longer be Bobby Charlton with 49 but Vivian Woodward with 73 (44 amateur, 29 'full')

England would share the best unbeaten international run - 36 games - with Brazil and would hold the record for the most consecutive victories - 23 - outright.

I think it's to the credit of the FA that they have refused to accept the IFFHS verdicts. After all to do so would only enhance their record internationally. And while FIFA are certainly the world governing body nowadays this wasn't always the case. Pre-1904 no such body existed and even until after WW2 it was a heavily European dominated organisation. There were also periods when the British associations were not in membership.

What book authors publish may be "insignificant" to Dr Poge. But to me that smacks of an attitude which says everyone is out of step except the IFFHS. Personally I prefer the RSSSF which still insists on evidence before publication but which allows everyone the chance to contribute.

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Post by steve994 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:19 pm

The rule in cricket is that a match is first class if it was considered first class at the time that it was played. This rule was used to stop three matches in Ceylon being reclassified so that Jack Hobbs could retrospectively have two hundred first class centuries. I understand that he agreed himself that the rule was correct.

For "first class" read "international" and adjudication would be needed only if there was disagreement at the time (Scotland vs Norway regional) or if no opinion was expressed.

Steve

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