Scottish Cup Crowds

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Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by Scottish » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:50 pm

Here we go again. This is the fifth season of the current format and the SFA still treat their supposedly prestige domestic competition with nothing short of disdain in its early stages. Nothing but bog-standard results on their website 48 hours after the matches were played. If they can't take an interest in their own competition why should they expect others to. Fortunately there are enthusiasts out there who keep people update with results and scorers etc and scorers also appear on Sky. I presumed now that the trophy is sponsored by a bookie (does the change in sponsorship mean we have gone from an active nation to a BETTER one?) we'd see some details there but all they have are results, goal times and scorers - and some of the latter are clearly in error.

As usual they have no crowds so I've spent the better (there's that word again, the sponsorship must be having an effect) part of the day trawling round trying to find crowd figures. It's no use asking the SFA. Not these days anyway. When Andy Mitchell was there all the information was accurate and to hand. These days they even have trouble putting up the right results.

Anyway, I am looking for crowd figures for eight of Saturday's games as follows. The matches at:
Culter
Dalbeattie (website says 'decent' which in this context I take to mean a couple of hundred or so)
Edinburgh City
Edinburgh Uni
Huntly
Vale of Leithen
Wick (website says 'full house' but their best in recent times was 1,217 v Brechin two seasons ago and I can't see a game v Coldstream topping that)
Wigtown

Figures I have for the other eight games are: (let me know of any corrections/discrepancies
Forres 400
Fraserburgh 315
Gala 100 (played at Selkirk)
Glasgow Uni 170
Lossiemouth 425
Nairn 350
Rothes 103
St Cuthbert 150

Still outstanding from previous seasons.

2007-08 None

2008-09 Five
Sep 27th 2008
Edinburgh Uni v Civil Service Strollers
Glasgow Uni v Valeo of Leithen
Preston Ath v Gala F
Selkirk v Coldstream

Oct 4th 2008 Replay
Coldstream v Selkirk

2009-10 Four
Sep 26th 2009
Coldstream v Edinburgh City
Hawick RA v Huntly
Selkirk v Preston Ath

Oct 3rd Replay
Wigtown & B v Whitehill W

2010-11 Three
Sep 25th 2010
Civil Service Strollers v Wigtown & B
Hawick RA v Dalbeattie S
Newton Stewart v Preston Ath

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by prorege » Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:36 am

I was at Vale of Leithen v Girvan and counted 91 spectators.

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by Scottish » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:37 pm

prorege wrote:I was at Vale of Leithen v Girvan and counted 91 spectators.
Thanks for that. Anyone else?

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by Scottish » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:58 pm

Highlandleague.net gives 300 for today's game at Fort William. Nothing for Meadow Park but Meadow site gives crowd for last week's game at Forres as 358

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by Scottish » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:48 am

Last week's matches:
Wick 410
Huntly 214

Yesterday
Meadow 450 - this may change later if and when a report is added to the Meadow site.

Still outstanding (from last Saturday)
Culter
Dalbeattie Star
Edinburgh City
Edinburgh Uni
Wigtown

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by Scottish » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:25 am

Full second round details were given on Sky's site - scorers, goal times, crowds (mix of accurates and estimates), referees, line-ups, red and yellow cards. Only thing missing is ground name for some of the fixtures and that's the easiest information of the lot to obtain. Who knows? Maybe they'll actually put this into next year's Yearbook instead of starting at round three as they usually do?

Still, better than the SFA who give the date for the East Stirling - Buckie game last Sunday as five days after the Saturday matches.

I'm still looking for those five outstanding figures for the first round if anyone has them.

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by Boris57 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:32 am

Edinburgh City v Irvine MeadoW 775

taken from match report in Edinburgh Evening News

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by Alan McCabe » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:53 am

Have it on good authority that Edinburgh City had 125 paying customers for their opening round game.
Also, Sky Sports details don't seem to include a crowd figure for Clach v Inverurie. Anyone know?

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by Scottish » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:30 am

Thanks Boris, Alan.

Highlandleague.net gives 250 for Clach match. Also, the 450 for the Meadow-Forres replay above is 444 on the Meadow website.

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by HibeeJibee » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:11 pm

You have Lossiemouth v Auchinleck as 425 for R1, some sources including Auchinleck's website give 694.
http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/auchinlec ... _id=806777

I'm afraid R1 just has to be treated as if a qualifier/preliminary. Many clubs will not keep a formal record of the gate simply of the takings; and many others will estimate. In a few cases some will provide an inflated figure to the press where given, I'd suspect.

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by Scottish » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:23 pm

HibeeJibee wrote:You have Lossiemouth v Auchinleck as 425 for R1, some sources including Auchinleck's website give 694.
http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/auchinlec ... _id=806777

I'm afraid R1 just has to be treated as if a qualifier/preliminary. Many clubs will not keep a formal record of the gate simply of the takings; and many others will estimate. In a few cases some will provide an inflated figure to the press where given, I'd suspect.
On the general point of figures, a figure will have to be submitted to the SFA for each game. Secondly, why should a club would provide an inflated figure? Wouldn't that just make the away team demand more cash?

On this specific match, I wasn't aware of that site. I thought this was Talbot's site. I'm not saying the figure of 694 is wrong but I don't know the source of it whereas the 425 comes from Sky and also highlandeague.net which are are reliable as any other.

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by HibeeJibee » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:24 pm

Do clubs definetely have to provide the crowd to the SFA? I've had a scan of the cup rules and didn't find mention of a return or what the return would comprise - but would Hampden definetely need to know (or want to know) the crowds? They may be one, of course, and it may include a requirement to furnish the physical attendance - and not just say the takings.

AFAIA, the clubs settle the division of the gate amongst themselves... There was a dispute recently when Dunfermline asked the SFA to intervene when Hearts were late sending them their cheque, IIRC. They definetely agree prices themselves.

Comments about accurate counting/rounding/inflating are really just sprung from personal observations of attending ties in R1 over recent years, and reading/hearing about others. There are a lot of x00 crowds; ones which seem very high - even to people there at the game; and I've been to at least 1 tie where it didn't appear any entry-by-entry tally was being taken tbh...

If an attendance is very low, most obviously in 2 figures - would the away club be bothered about an 'inflated' figure going to the press, provided they've received the actual gate share? If no figure is required or checked by SFA it does no harm, and it saves some face publicly, if one can be cynical.

Regarding Lossie-Auchinleck: I use the FitbaNorth forum sometimes (kind of HFL stand-alone equivalent of P&B), and on the day of the game, the crowd is described as 694 (no mention of 425). So perhaps it was announced as such at the ground. It's suggested Auchinleck brought 350-400 fans, and seperately brought 7 coaches (which tallies). The home support would be of a couple of hundred, surely, and a contingent of a few dozen Buckie fans are purported to have attended. They had no game.

Unfortunately no figure is given on Lossiemouth's site.

It may be that things are far more reliable and properly-done that a lot of people, including myself, seem to think - but short of getting a full set of figures off SFA (assuming they do collect them and check them, ensuring accuracy), I think it's a huge minefield of inconsistencies in many cases.

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by ScottishFA » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:07 pm

Strictly speaking, clubs don't have to provide an exact attendance figure to the SFA. The Association is, however, concerned with financial reporting and does ask them to provide a breakdown of gate receipts - but it can take weeks or even months for some clubs to complete the paperwork.

As there is no levy on receipts in rounds 1, 2 or 3 there is no great will to chase up these figures if the clubs are slow in sending this information in. It would only become an issue if there was a dispute between the clubs.

There is a line on the SFA form asking for an attendance figure, but some clubs in the earlier rounds give a rounded figure - simply because the crowd will include complimentaries and season ticket holders who haven't paid directly for admission. And of course there is no official definition as to what constitutes an 'attendance figure' - does it include just those who pay for entry, those in the ground as spectators, or everyone in the ground including club officials? When there are less than 200 people around the touchline, there can be considerable variations depending on what definition you use.

If you follow this link to the SFA handbook, the relevant clauses about receipts start about page 138:
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/d ... ndbook.pdf

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by Scottish » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:19 pm

The SFA have always required figures from matches as they have to take their own cut - though this doesn't apply to the early rounds nowadays. Originally this was just gate money but there was a change in the early 20th century to numbers as well. Hence in the 1920s you start to see numbers from 1-9 appearing at the end of crowds for cup ties (though there were instances before that and there were still two and three zero returns as well). When I was writing 'ROAR of the Crowd' Andy Mitchell, then Head of Communications at the SFA, kindly provided me with attendances from 2000-2005, which although before the current format came into being did include many non-league gates from the first and second rounds.

As I said I'm not claiming the figure of 694 to be wrong. If it did indeed come from the club at the game then that would be an accurate source. I work by the rule of accepting the most likely accurate source. In the absence of the SFA (who have the figures but don't have the same approach to openness as in Andy's time - the SFL is now the exact opposite, at one point it was easier to break into the Kremlin than get a gate figure off them but now they are very open) the next best is the figure provided by the PA/Sky/highlandleague.net. If Lossiemouth FC say it was 694 then that would trump those sources.

I doubt the number of away fans though. I've heard too many stories over too many years about how many fans are going to such and such a game. Bo'ness were meant to be taking twenty buses to Selkirk last year. In the end the crowd was 535. Two years ago in Talbot's first season in the senior trophy their match at Huntly was watched by 488. Presumably, given the novelty of it all, that was a more enticing game. Looking at other Junior clubs away to Highland teams in the senior cup we have Fraserburgh v Bonnyrigg Rose 430, Huntly v Girvan 198, Huntly v Girvan again 250, Golspie v Girvan 150, Brora v Meadow 158, Forres v Meadow 358. That last is what makes me cynical about claims of 350-400 Talbot fans going to Lossie. It's hard to believe they took as many on their own as watched the match at Forres. It's assuming more than twice as many Talbot fans were prepared to travel north than Meadow supporters were - on the same day - and I can't see that being the case.

One thing I would definitely disagree with you though is the idea that Hearts - a team represented by a fine upstanding pillar of the community like Mr Romanov - would ever be late in making any kind of payment owed by them. You have obviously forgotten all about the SFA's agents deployed within the Royal Mail whose express purpose is to discredit Mr Romanov and his club.

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Re: Scottish Cup Crowds

Post by Scottish » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:17 am

Couple of amendments to the figures issued after the third round. The Meadow official site gives 1586 for the match v Livingston and highlandleague.net has 421 for Keith v Arbroath. These were initially reported as 1500 and 350 respectively.

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