Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Scottish Football Answers to Questions

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby Snuff » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:03 am

Further to my earlier posts, I now have an updated list of "The First XI", i.e. Scotland's oldest surviving internationalists. It appears Jimmy Watson (Motherwell and Huddersfield Town) died in the early 1990s, so my list now reads:

Andy Paton (Motherwell)
Bobby Brown (Queen's Park and Rangers)
Ian Black (Southampton)
Sammy Cox (Rangers)
Alex Forbes (Sheffield United and Arsenal)
Johnny McKenzie (Partick Thistle)
Jock Aird (Burnley)
Doug Cowie (Dundee)
Tommy Docherty (Preston NE and Arsenal)
Lawrie Reilly (Hibernian)
John Hewie (Charlton Athletic)

Sub: Fred Martin (Aberdeen)
Snuff
Snuff
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 8:55 am
Location: New Cumnock, Ayrshire

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby football2011 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:17 pm

Ian Black died last Thursday which leaves the new X1 as

Andy Paton (Motherwell)
Bobby Brown (Queen's Park and Rangers)
Sammy Cox (Rangers)
Alex Forbes (Sheffield United and Arsenal)
Johnny McKenzie (Partick Thistle)
Jock Aird (Burnley)
Doug Cowie (Dundee)
Tommy Docherty (Preston NE and Arsenal)
Lawrie Reilly (Hibernian)
John Hewie (Charlton Athletic)
Fred Martin (Aberdeen)

New substitute to find.
football2011
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:35 pm

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby ScottishFA » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:04 pm

I've had a scan through my records for those born in the 1930s (ie after Fred Martin) and I think the following are still alive, in birth order:

John Little 8 July 1930
Michael Cullen 3 July 1931
John Grant 16 June 1931
David Mathers 23 October 1931
Jimmy Murray 4 February 1933
David Herd 15 April 1934
Graham Leggat 20 June 1934
Dave Mackay 14 November 1934
Jimmy Millar 20 November 1934
Lawrie Leslie 17 March 1935
Eddie Connachan 27 August 1935
1936: Ralph Brand, Steve Chalmers, George Herd, Davie Holt, George Mulhall, Pat Quinn, Billy Ritchie.
1937: Willie Bell, Tommy Ewing, Duncan MacKay, Jackie Plenderleith, Ron Yeats, Alex Young
1938: Dave Gibson, Alan Gilzean, Frank Haffey, John MacLeod, Ian St John
1939: Pat Crerand, Frank McLintock, Ian Ure, David Wilson.

If any of these fine men are actually dead, I would appreciate an update. And similarly if I have missed someone still going.

Finally, I don't have a note of death for James Forrest (the Motherwell one) who was born in 1927. Is he perhaps still alive?
ScottishFA
 
Posts: 1057
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:21 pm
Location: Dunblane

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby Scottish » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:21 pm

AFAIK Campbell Forsyth (actual first name Robert) dob 5/5/1934, Plean, is still alive.
Scottish
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7811
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby sureitsza » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:49 am

Bertie Auld 23 March 1938
sureitsza
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:13 pm

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby FlowGently » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:51 pm

scottish wrote:Karen, there's some confusion surrounding James Maxwell Sr. You say you have seen his name on a war memorial in France and that was my understanding too. I wrote in my book 'Killie - the Official History' in 1994 that he had been killed on the Western Front. But the more recent 'Killie Til' I Die' has more specific details. I quote: "Tragically he was killed in action in Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) in April 1917 while serving as a Lance-Corporal in the 1st Battalion of the Seaforth Highlanders. He has no known grave but his name is listed on the Basra Memorial, which was moved in 1997 to the Nasiryah road (ironically the scene of a major battle during the Gulf War of 1991) and also on Kilmarnock's war memorial." This isan up to date book (published 2011), researched and written by Richard Cairns who has edited the matchday programme for twenty years and a fanzine before that, and Gordon Allison, a collector of Killie information for decades.

In terms of his life and career he was born in New Cumnock 10/1/1882 and died in 21/4/1917. He played for Kilmarnock Shawbank & Petershill before signing for Kilmarnock in December 1904. He represented the Scottish League (as did 'Bud') and later played for (Sheffield) The Wednesday, (Woolwich) Arsenal, Hurlford, Galston, Carlisle United before rejoining Kilmarnock in December 1912. Prior to the outbreak of the war he played for Nithsdale Wanderers. He scored 18 times (14 league, four Scottish Cup) in 65 appearances (55 lge, 10 SC) for Kilmarnock.

James Jr. ('Bud') was born Kilmarnock 15/1/1913, died Poole, Dorset 22/4/1990. He played 147 matches (126 lge, 21 SC), scoring 121 goals (103 lge, 18 SC) and is Kilmarnock's fifth top league scorer in their history and sixth overall, a remarkable placing considering he left the club three months after his 21st birthday. He played for the Scottish Schools Under-14's three times and was signed up by Killie before he was 17. He was the club's top scorer for four consecutive seasons. As well as playing for the Scottish League, he also played for Kilmarnock in the 1932 Scottish Cup Final and replay, scoring in the first game.

He moved to Preston North End, one of a clutch of former Kilmarmock players among a large Scottish contingent when they won the FA Cup in 1938.All told he scored 60 goals in 129 appearances for Preston. He signed briefly for Barnsley in July 1939 scoring four goals in three games before returning to Killie for the unofficial 1939-40 season. The club shut down for the duration in 1940 when the military requisitioned the ground and Maxwell spent five years in the Royal Navy.

He was 33 and troubled by knee injuries come the end of the war so 1946-47 with Shrewsbury Town, then a Midland League side, was his last.


James Maxwell senior was born at Mansfield Village, New Cumnock. I have him in a list of Lanemark FC players (New Cumnock senior team) in 1911, between his spell with Carlisle and joining Killie.
FlowGently
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:41 pm

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby FlowGently » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:01 pm

Eric Caldow 14th May 1934
Played with the successful juvenile side Glenpark , New Cumnock in Season 1949/50 before stepping up to Muirkirk Juniors
FlowGently
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:41 pm

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby Scottish » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:56 am

FlowGently wrote:
James Maxwell senior was born at Mansfield Village, New Cumnock. I have him in a list of Lanemark FC players (New Cumnock senior team) in 1911, between his spell with Carlisle and joining Killie.


To confirm, after email correspondence with FlowGently, the post made on Nov 5th 2012 (pg 2 of this thread) with information from Richard Cairns is accurate.
Scottish
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7811
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby leicester » Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:00 am

I realise neither are now 'surviving', but I'm reduced to owning up that I'm still bereft of absolutely reliable information on two of Leicester City's sometime Scottish internationals; and sincerely hope that a board member might be able to proffer chapter & verse on both/either of the following Patersons...

Paterson, James
b. Stirling, c1907 [????????]; d. [????????]
Career: Causewayhead FC; Camelon Juniors; Jan 1927 Everton; cs 1927 St Johnstone; cs 1930 Cowdenbeath; May 1932 LEICESTER CITY; July 1935 Reading; July 1938 Clapton Orient.

[I've come up with numerous possibilities; and I'm aware that several sites (incl Fitbastats) give b. Cowdenbeath 15.6.1905 (not, however, on Scotland's People); others include James McPherson Paterson, b. 21.7.05 Falkirk (illegitimate; mother Jane), d. 1989 Falkirk; James Forrester Paterson. b. Bonnybridge, Stirling, 1.11.07]

Paterson, John William
b. Dundee, 14th December 1896; d. [???????????]
Career: Dundee Arnott; Dundee North End; Army football; Fort Hill Athletic; Apr 1919 Dundee; Dec 1919 LEICESTER CITY; Mar 1922 Sunderland; Oct 1924 Preston North End; Sept 1925 Mid-Rhondda; Jan 1926 Queens Park Rangers; July 1928 Mansfield Town; Oct 1928 Montrose.

[I have an inkling that Jock's demise may have come in 1970; but no reliable confirmation]

As ever, any constructive responses (and I've had many from this board) would be most welcome. [And, as ever, I'll be more than happy to field any Leicester-related queries in return; I can now even stretch to offering (usually slightly less) info on players who represented Loughborough in the Midland Alliance, Midland League and Football League 1890-1900. I'm very much in the foothills of that particular bit of research...].

Cheers,

PT
leicester
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:22 pm

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby cowdenbeather » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:38 pm

There has always been some confusion regarding Jim Paterson with most sources suggesting he was either born in Stirling or Dunipace in 1907. There also was a rumour though that he actually had been born in Cowdenbeath. He was definitely living with his family in the Causewayhead area of Stirling when he joined Cowdenbeath in 1930. However, at long last, after a lot of detective work, we can confirm that Jim Paterson joins Tommy Muirhead, Alex Venters and Willie Callaghan in being a Scottish internationalist who was born in Cowdenbeath. The vital clue at last was provided when a report of his marriage was located in the press. Newspaper reports also suggest he played for Causewayhead United & Strathallan Hawthorn as well before going to Camelon.

James Paterson’s birth certificate shows that he was born in Foulford Road, Cowdenbeath at what seems to be listed as 8b Block (hard to decipher) on 15 June 1905. His father was a miner named Alexander Paterson who had married Elizabeth Hunter at Langour, Tillicoultry in 1900.

Jim Paterson died on 30th December 1978 at 20 Fountain Road, Bridge of Allan
cowdenbeather
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:13 pm

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby ScottishFA » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:51 pm

I was in Register House today working on more Scotland internationals and managed to track down the details of John Paterson, all confirmed by him giving his occupation as professional footballer on his marriage certificate in 1920.

He was born on 14 December 1897 (not 1896) at 41 William Street, Forebank, Dundee. He died on 11 January 1973 at Kings Cross Hospital, Dundee with his profession given as a retired Works Department labourer. And in all three certificates - birth, marriage and death - there is no middle name of William, he is just plain John Paterson.

Also, to complete the info on Jimmy Watson, mentioned earlier in the thread, he died on 11 April 1996 in Dunfermline (he was born 16 January 1924 in Plean, Stirlingshire).
ScottishFA
 
Posts: 1057
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:21 pm
Location: Dunblane

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby leicester » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:16 pm

Sincere thanks to both Cowdenbeather and ScottishFA for invaluable info on the Patersons.

PT
leicester
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:22 pm

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby ScottishFA » Fri May 03, 2013 2:32 pm

ScottishFA wrote:
Finally, I don't have a note of death for James Forrest (the Motherwell one) who was born in 1927. Is he perhaps still alive?


I've now tracked down a date of death for James Forrest: he died in Aberdeen on 26 November 1992.
ScottishFA
 
Posts: 1057
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:21 pm
Location: Dunblane

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby nightfire » Fri May 03, 2013 6:33 pm

Bobby Collins born 16th February 1931
nightfire
 
Posts: 337
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:12 pm

Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby Snuff » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:53 am

Following the recent sad deaths of Lawrie Reilly and Fred Martin, there are a couple of new faces in our list of Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists.

The new 'First XI' now reads:

Andy Paton (Motherwell)
Bobby Brown (Queen's Park and Rangers)
Sammy Cox (Rangers)
Alex Forbes (Sheffield United and Arsenal)
Johnny McKenzie (Partick Thistle)
Jock Aird (Burnley)
Doug Cowie (Dundee)
Tommy Docherty (Preston North End and Arsenal)
John Hewie (Charlton Athletic)
Johnny Little (Rangers)
Bobby Collins (Celtic, Everton and Leeds United)
Mike Cullen (Luton Town)
Snuff
Snuff
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 8:55 am
Location: New Cumnock, Ayrshire

PreviousNext

Return to SFAQS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 5 guests

cron