J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

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J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by ScottishFA » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:51 pm

Can anyone help with this one? I've been trying without success to clarify the career of J. Weir, who was capped at half-back for Scotland while with Third Lanark in 1887, and may be the same player who was with Everton the following season.

There is a lot of conflicting information out there, but I can't find any contemporary newspaper reports to put the record straight.

For a start, many sites (eg London Hearts, 11v11) record him as John Weir while with Third Lanark, with whom he played from 1883-87, having come from Wellpark. He appears to have left the club in the summer of 1887, and may well have gone south to turn professional, not uncommon after getting a cap.

In September 1887, a J Weir appears in the line-up of Bootle FC (who were actively recruiting Scots players, having also signed the great Andrew Watson as well as Robert Izatt of Third Lanark). J Weir (and Izatt) then left Bootle in October to join Everton, where he stayed for two years, playing his last match in September 1889. He is generally recorded as James Weir. Most Everton sites say he came from Third Lanark, which seems plausible as Weir was not with Bootle the previous season, so he could have gone south in the summer. The Everton official site, however, says Weir joined them from Hibernian!

Further complications:
John Litster's player disk records him as James Weir, but his book on Third Lanark calls him John Weir. The Litster disk also has him playing for Hibs in 1886/87, which I can't find any confirmation of, and also going from Everton to Sunderland Albion in 1890. This doesn't seem to be the same man, although even the newspaper reports are contradictory:
Sunderland Echo, 28 September 1889: James Weir, the latest arrival, hails from the Dumbarton club, and assisted them a fortnight ago.
York Herald, 30 September 1889: Weir, late of Dumbarton, played centre forward for [Sunderland] Albion who, through the medium of Weir and Kinnaird, scored twice.
Northern Echo, 5 October 1889: Weir, of the Edinburgh Hibs, after coming to Gateshead NER, was got by the Elswick Rangers, but they soon lost him to Sunderland Albion who, it is alleged, gave him a fiver for his signature.
Birmingham Daily Post: 10 November 1889: Sunderland Albion team list includes Weir (Dumbarton)
Sunderland Echo: Weir returned ‘home’ to Dunblane with Jamie Kinnaird.
This was resolved by the Aberdeen Weekly Journal of 31 October 1891, which gave penpics of the Perthshire team against Aberdeenshire, and clarified that James Weir played in the famous Dumbarton team two seasons ago, but was sought after by an English agent. He played two seasons with Sunderland Albion alongside Kinnaird, then 'took advantage of the favour granted to Scotch players across the border' (ie an SFA amnesty) and returned to his 'first love', ie Dunblane FC, where he played through the 1890s.

So: John or James? And which is the correct career path?

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by Scottish » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:43 pm

The Everton player with the last game in September 1889 is given as James (Jimmy) Weir on ENFA, born Edinburgh, 1864.

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by bluedragon » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:25 pm

The Everton minute books that are on-line start in October 1887 and a "Weir" is simply reported as a new player in October 1887. In May 1890 a "Weir" having being offered re-engagement terms for the next season was then called before the committee for not turning up for a game against Bootle. His explanation was not considered satisfactory but because it was the end of the season they agree pay him his wages and instruct his to turn up for a reserve game. There is no trace of him after that.

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by kjell » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:53 pm

Hello,

In Dundee Courier, Friday, 22 April, 1887, there is a reference to players leaving Third Lanark. One of those mentioned is a C. Weir.

Kjell

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by ScottishFA » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:18 pm

Thanks Kjell, but Third Lanark line-ups that season sometimes had a C Weir as well as a J Weir, so they are apparently two different players.

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by Burchy » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:10 pm

HI,

My partners Great Great grandad is John Weir who played for Scotland and Everton around the same time, so it is highly likely this is the J Weir you are referring too. I can try to find out more information. I do know either last season, or the season before there was a mention of Jonny Wier in the Everton Programme.

Unfortunately J Wier's Grandson passed away this year, who also played England School boys & briefly for Crystal Palace


Match reports for J Weir when at Everton can be found on the below link:

http://www.evertoncollection.org.uk/sea ... descending


Out take from Everton reports December 19th 1889:

The Minutes of last meeting being read. Robt Jones and
J. Weir were ordered to appear before the Com. on
Friday next to explain their not going with the
Reserve Team last Saturday.
Six penny admission fee to the ground last Saty.
It was decided to defer this matter for a larger
Com. & the minutes were then passed.

Also link below is for Evertons minutes relating to J Weir:

http://www.evertoncollection.org.uk/obj ... 20Weir&b=y

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by Burchy » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:32 pm

John Weir, played at the ground for Third Lanark from 1916 to 1919. “John Weir made his debut on January 29, 1916 against Aberdeen and he scored a hat-trick in a 6-2 win which was pretty good going. He played a further 15 times that season

John Weir’s last game for the 'Hi Hi' was on March, 1 1919 against Ayr United and he started the next season at Airdrieonians before moving to Kings Park and then Armadale from 1921 to 1924. Weir then played at St Bernards, before finishing off his career with Bo'ness, helping them win promotion to the first division as Scottish Football League Second Division champions 1926–27

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by Scottish » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:28 pm

Hi there and welcome to the forum. I think the Weir in your second post is a different player from that in your earlier one, who is a much likelier contender. I'm sure ScottishFA will comment when he next logs on.

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by ScottishFA » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:11 am

Hi Burchy, many thanks for coming up with that information - John it is! Sometimes family info is the only way to resolve questions such as this.

If you can provide any additional info that would be very helpful - for example, dates and places for birth and death (even approximate), any idea of his profession outside football, and whether he played for another club after Everton.

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by Burchy » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:21 pm

Hi Some useful information

John Weir Born in Scotland, resided in Rawtenstall Lancashire

After football career, in 1911 John's Occupation is registered as 'Slipper Pren Man'

John Weirs wife was called Euphemia Weir

John had i believe 12 children, John, Richard, James, Charles, William, Elizabeth, Jane, Maud, Ronald, Allan, John, Hilda / It seems that one of his sons John had died, and they had another child called John.

john Weir was born in Scotland in 1865/6 and is registered deceased March 1946
Johns Wife Euphemia is registered deceased Jan 1947

I hope this is of help to you

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by ScottishFA » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:23 pm

With many thanks for Burchy for confirming what I had already suspected through examining census records, which matched his football movements. It seems he gave up football after leaving Everton, and settled in Lancashire with his rapidly growing family.

John Weir
Clubs: Wellpark, Third Lanark 1884-87, Bootle Aug 1887, Everton Nov 87-Sept 89
Scotland: one cap v Ireland, 1887; also played for Glasgow 1887.
Born Crossmyloof, Glasgow 10 January 1865 to John Weir and Jane O’Donnell
Died Rawtenstall, Lancashire 11 January 1946. Buried at St Nicholas, Newchurch-in-Rossendale, grave C60.
Married Euphemia Simpson 25 March 1887 in Glasgow. First son John b Glasgow 1887, daughter Isabella born Liverpool 11 July 1888, second son Richard born Liverpool 1890.
1891 census Blacksmith Hammerman living in Southport; 1901 and 1911 census: Slipper Press Man.

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by kjell » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:24 pm

Hello,

The last matches he played for Everton seemed to have been in May 1890.

Kjell

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by max444 » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:35 pm

John Weir arrived in Liverpool during the summer of 1887, with his wife and son, and took up residence at 2 Pulford Street. He first played 2 games for Liverpool Stanley before joining his former Third Lanark team mate Rob Izatt( any more info on this player), at Bootle. Both players were supposed to appear for their new club, in an FA Cup tie but, at the 11th hour, transferred their services to Everton. The Anfield club were later found guilty of "Professionalism" and had their ground closed for one month.

John Weir later signed professional forms for Everton and played 16 games for them during their first season in the Football League. His brother Charlie, in the meantime, had also signed for Everton where and made several appearances for the 2nd X1. On the 13-9-1889, John Weir was injured, at Wolverhampton, and never played again, for Everton, in the Football League. He had made 19 appearances.

He later signed for the High Park club in Southport where he remained for one season. In 1892 he became Player/Manager of Rossendale, who were members of the Lancashire League, and made his debut, playing alongside his brother Charlie, against Liverpool Caledonians. He stayed at Rossendale for 3 seasons before ending his playing days with nearby Rawtenstall. The Weir family settled at 22 Old Street, Newchurch and went on to have, in all, 13 children. John, along with several of his children, worked in a local factory that made carpet slippers. He later became the trainer of Rossendale and maintained a connection with the club until his death in 1946.

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Re: J. Weir, Third Lanark Everton and Scotland 1887

Post by ScottishFA » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:53 pm

Just noticed that Tony Onslow posted an article about John Weir on Toffeeweb:
http://weather.toffeeweb.com/season/14- ... 28625.html

NB there is a typo for date of death, should read January not November.

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