Cartvale 1881-82

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BMCCOLL
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Cartvale 1881-82

Post by BMCCOLL » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:12 pm

I've been looking at the Renfrewshire District part of the Scottish Cup 2nd Round of 1881-82.
Johnstone gained a bye for this round according to the original draw, however Cartvale also seems to have been awarded one as they don't appear in that round but do so in round 3. Was this an oversight on the part of the SFA?
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Aten
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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by Aten » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:28 pm

I have Cartvale as having a bye in that season. John Byrne’s book has Cartvale along with Brunswick, Edinburgh University, Glasgow University, Johnstone, Kilbirnie, Petershill, Stranraer and Strathmore all receiving Second Round byes.

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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by BMCCOLL » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:19 pm

Two clubs in the same grouping being awarded byes is unusual, as in the first few rounds there wasn't a set procedure to get down to a specific number of clubs... if there were thirteen clubs in a group, there would be 6 ties and one bye, if there was 20 club then it would be ten ties and so on. That's the reason behind this query, it's a long shot, but did they somehow forget about Cartvale?
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LEATHERSTOCKING
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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:48 pm

Unusual but not unique for two clubs in the same district getting byes. From contemporary press coverage of Cup draws for season 1881-82, I have Luton(Glasgow) & University both going through in GLASGOW & SUBURBS 1st Round, Dunfermline & University in EDINBURGH & DISTRICT 1st Round, Petershill & University in GLASGOW & SUBURBS 2nd Round, Johnstone & Cartvale in LANARKSHIRE 2nd Round, Brunswick & University in EDINBURGH & DISTRICT 2nd Round, Queen`s Park & University in GLASGOW & SUBURBS 3rd Round, Hibernian & University in EDINBURGH & DISTRICT 3rd Round. Admittedly, the two Universities were automatically given byes up to the "all in" 4th Round due to term time not starting for the opening three rounds so it leaves the byes awarded to Johnstone & Cartvale as a bit of a teaser. Was there, perhaps, some confusion with SFA subscriptions with Johnstone & Cartvale after their 1st Round games meaning they were excluded from the 2nd Round draw but the problems were resolved in time for them to be included in the 3rd Round draw?

HibeeJibee
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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:34 pm

Could it perhaps be some dispute over their R1 tie which meant they weren't included in R2 draw, and following its resolution they effectively rejoined at R3?

There were various odd goings-on back then.

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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by BMCCOLL » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:28 pm

Seems unlikely, there was a month between the two rounds which seems like plenty of time to resolve any dispute, including this first round tie...

17 Sep Bridge of Allan v Thistle Athletic 1-1
24 Sep Thistle Athletic v Bridge of Allan 0-0 (or 1-1)
Both clubs were allowed to progress. However when Strathblane protested after they were drawn against Bridge of Allan, and Thistle Athletic were awarded a bye in the second round, the SFA ordered a third match between them -
1 Oct Thistle Athletic v Bridge of Allan 8-0
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LEATHERSTOCKING
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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:53 am

I have the Milngavie Thistle Athletic vs. Bridge of Allan replay ending in a 1-1 draw after extra time @ Milngavie possibly @ Burnbrae. The 8-0 game was also in Milngavie. Do you know why Strathblane objected to being drawn against Bridge of Allan? A game vs. Thistle constitutes a local derby(4 miles between villages) as opposed to a 31 mile trip to Bridge of Allan - a good reason? Thistle wore red & yellow hooped jerseys & blue knickers which, co-incidentally, are exactly the same colours worn by West of Scotland Football Club which moved from Partick to Burnbrae in 1946.

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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by ScottishFA » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:50 pm

Another oddity from that season.

In the second round, Vale of Teith beat Dunblane Wanderers 6-2 in Doune on 8 October.

However, Dunblane are not mentioned in the first round draw made on 23 August. There are three Perthshire ties: Blairgowrie v Coupar Angus, Dunkeld v Rob Roy and Vale of Teith v Aberfeldy.

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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:13 pm

There were seven clubs in the Perthsire division of the Cup`s 1st Round that season. Couper Angus beat Blairgowrie 4-0 away, Rob Roy had a walk over when Dunkeld scratched(was this after a first game?) & Vale of Teith also had a walk over when Aberfeldy scratched. Dunblane were awarded a bye into the 2nd Round. I don`t think they played in the competition as DUNBLANE WANDERERS but simply as DUNBLANE.

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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by BMCCOLL » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:36 pm

Dunblane joined the SFA after the first round was played off and were granted entry into the second round and press reports do call them Dunblane Wanderers.

Vale of Leven Hibs and Stewarton Cunninghame also joined at the same time but for some reason were denied a place in the competition.
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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:52 am

Thanks for actual reason for Dunblane not appearing in 1st Round; the press coverage I read had awarded them a bye probably retrospectively. Dunblane dropped the "Wanderers" part of their name very quickly after foundation.

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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by ScottishFA » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:57 pm

ScottishFA wrote: In the second round, Vale of Teith beat Dunblane Wanderers 6-2 in Doune on 8 October.
Apologies, the game was actually in Dunblane.

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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by BMCCOLL » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:55 pm

Don't let it happen again...
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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by ScottishFA » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:40 pm

I've found why Cartvale were excluded - it was 'another SFA blunder'.

From SFA minute book for 1881, held in the Museum at Hampden:

A meeting of the Business Committee was held in these rooms at one o'clock on Tuesday the 4th Oct for the purpose of considering what should be done with the Cartvale, who were omitted in the second round of the Cup drawings. The Secy stated to those present which included JW Hamilton - who occupied the chair - Messrs R Broome, Devlin, Young, Paton and Stoddart that he had been in correspondence with the Johnstone, who had received a bye, endeavouring to get them to meet the Cartvale, but as they considered it unconstitutional to play a club which had not been drawn along with the others, the only course open to the committee was to give both clubs a bye, and this they instructed the Secy to do.

There is also an interesting extract from the general committee meeting of 20 September, when the second round draw was made:

Another letter, from the Dunkeld, who were admitted into the Association immediately after the General Meeting, but whose right to compete in Cup Competition had been overlooked, was also considered, and on the motion of Mr Hamilton seconded by Mr Wallace, it was agreed to allow them to take part in second round.

As Dunkeld had taken part in the first round draw, I believe this probably should have read Dunblane. There is no other mention of Dunblane being admitted, and would explain why the two clubs who were recorded as joining at the 20 September meeting, Cunninghame (Stewarton) and Vale of Leven Hibernians, were not included in the second round draw.

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Re: Cartvale 1881-82

Post by BMCCOLL » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:58 pm

So I was correct in them being overlooked, hazzaah! These minute books should be available via BNA et al... indispensible stuff!

And cheers, guys, great work.
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