Junior International records

Scottish Football Answers to Questions
bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:18 am

First, thank you for all the contributions on this and other threads to help compile as complete a list as possible of Junior Internationals (and other SJFA matches) and the players who played. Please keep the contributions coming! Thanks in particular go to Sureitza for all his help.

Secondly, here is an update.

Matches

We currently have 352 matches that includes 4 postponed games and 1 abandoned match. Of the completed matches 261 were international matches and the remaining 86 were a combination of trials, anniversary, benefit, etc. matches.

Players

We have 1,987 players who are in the line-ups for the 352 matches who between them made a combined total of 3,943 appearances in the 347 competed matches. We are missing the names of players who made a total of 406 appearances in the non-international matches.

Of the 1,987 players we have a forename or at least a first initial for 1,642 of those players. Virtually all the 345 left without a forename/initial are from way, way back and only 13 are Post-World War Two players. Of those 13 only “Turnbull (Sunnybank)” played in an international match.

A special thank you to Sureitza for all his work on finding the vast majority of the forenames/initials.

Goalscorers

We are missing the names of scorers of 69 of the 789 goals in the matches where we have results. We are missing results from 18 non-international matches.

Full internationals

We have 55 players who between them played in 88 matches and went on to win 398 full international caps.

Most appearances

The most appearances in all types of matches are:

David Fulton (Arthurlie) - 21 matches between 1992 and 1999.
Tommy Ure (Linlithgow Rose) -18 matches between 1975 and 1981.
Bryan Smith (Shettleston & Petershill) -16 matches between 1993 and 1998.
Alex Hendrie (Shotts Bon Accord) -15 matches between 1981 and 1986.
Derek McCulloch (Auchinleck Talbot) -15 matches between 1997 and 2001.
Note: this includes where named as a substitute or a squad player.

Most goals

The top goal scorers are:

Bryan Dingwall (Maryhill & Pollok) 8 goals in 12 matches between 2005 and 2010.
Dennis Gray (Auchinleck Talbot) 7 goals in 12 matches between 1975 and 1980.
Willie Robertson (Kirkintilloch Rob Roy) 7 goals (all in the 1921 Norway tour).
Willie Spence (Kelty Hearts & Hill of Beath Hawthorn) 7 goals in 13 matches between 1994 and 1997.
White (club unknown) 7 goals (all in the 1921 Norway tour).

Many sources are drying up as the gaps in information become more difficult to fill. However, we are now going to double-check that all the games are indeed SJFA matches and not Junior league matches. We will also start checking club names for accuracy.

BMCCOLL
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Re: Junior International records

Post by BMCCOLL » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:23 pm

Douglas has allowed me to host the file on my site for easy download. It can be obtained via the link below.

http://www.scottish-football-historical ... onals.xlsx

All amendments, additions etc are most welcome!
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf

cowdenbeather
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Re: Junior International records

Post by cowdenbeather » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:27 am

Brian

Just a quick initial browse at some of the Fife players and can advise

Willie Archibald (Bowhill Thistle)
The Archibald from Lochgelly Violet is actually another Willie Archibald
Alex Chapman not Chaiman (Hearts of Beath)
Donald Cameron (Dunfermline Juniors rather than Dunfermline Athletic Juniors)
Dave Russell (Rosyth Recreation)
Think Mathieson (St Andrews United) must be Willie Mathieson

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:53 am

cowdenbeather wrote:Brian

Just a quick initial browse at some of the Fife players and can advise

Willie Archibald (Bowhill Thistle)
The Archibald from Lochgelly Violet is actually another Willie Archibald
Alex Chapman not Chaiman (Hearts of Beath)
Donald Cameron (Dunfermline Juniors rather than Dunfermline Athletic Juniors)
Dave Russell (Rosyth Recreation)
Think Mathieson (St Andrews United) must be Willie Mathieson
Thank you for the missing forenames and the correction of one forename and one surname. All amendments made.

I have also made the amendment to Alex Chapman’s club affiliation.

We have five other players capped between 1894 and 1900 who currently have “Dunfermline Athletic Juniors [1]” as their club.

I see from Brian’s club directory that both "Dunfermline [1]" and "Dunfermline Athletic Juniors [1]" played in the West of Fife Junior League at that time. We will need to double-check the clubs of these players:

Doig T
Ford (1)
Izatt
Moultrie J
Mutrie
Taylor (2)

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:48 am

I have now checked the British Newspaper Archive for these five players. This gives the following results:

Doig (Dunfermline Athletic Juniors)
Ford (Dunfermline Juniors)
Izatt one report just says “Dunfermline” but another says “Dunfermline Athletic Juniors”.
Moultrie (Dunfermline Juniors)
Taylor the report says "Dunfermline" however in a report of a Junior trial there is another player noted as "Dunfermline Athletic Juniors" while he is noted as just "Dunfermline".

The record we have for “Mutrie” is actually for "Jimmy Moultrie (Dunfermline)”.

Thanks for your post that let us sort this out.

gogsy1968
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Re: Junior International records

Post by gogsy1968 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:28 pm

Local papers don't seem to have many team line ups for 1893/4 season but the Izatt I have mentioned in the following .
19th Aug 2nd St Bernards v (Dunf) Athletic Juniors Izatt in Athletic team
2nd Sep Izatt in D Athletic Juniors team v Raith Athletic Cowdenbeath Cup 1st rd
23rd Sep Izatt in D Athletic juniors team v Dunfermline junior EOS cup 1st rd
7th Oct Izatt in Dunfermline juniors team v Larbert Windsor (fr)
14th Oct Izatt in Dunf Athletic juniors team v Bathgate in Scottish cup
28th Oct Izatt in Dunf Ath Juniors team v Raith Athletic in Cowdenbeath cup
11th Nov Izatt in Dunf Ath Juniors team v Aberdour in Dunfermline cup

Unfortunately things go a bit quiet after that , there are a few Athletic junior line ups in Nov/Dec where he isn't mentioned and the trial match at East End on 27th January has him noted just as Dunfermline which muddies the water a bit. He does get mentioned as an Athletic player when the teams are announced for game v Ireland on 10th Feb

prorege
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Re: Junior International records

Post by prorege » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:58 pm

Some more first names:

James Blacklaw Jeanfield Swifts
Douglas Bryden Lanark United
John “Jacky” Burke Neilston
Steven Davidson Errol
George Easton Johnstone Burgh
Alexander “Sandy” Keay Coupar Angus
William Mathieson St Andrews United
Ford Nelson Rutherglen Glencairn
Alfred Wilson Craigmark Burntonians

1962/3 Errol had a D Scott and a G Scott, not sure which one was capped

Gordon Baird
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Re: Junior International records

Post by Gordon Baird » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:26 pm

George Izatt was captain of the Athletic Juniors when he was capped. He later became Provost of Dunfermline.
Jimmy Ford and Jimmy Moultrie played for Dunfermline Juniors. Both later joined the Athletic.
Tom Doig played for the Athletic Juniors.
David Taylor played for Dunfermline Juniors. Both he and Donald Cameron played in the 1897 Scottish Junior Cup final. He later emigrated to South Africa.

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:19 pm

Forenames

Thanks for all the forenames. Another one has come from another source:

James McGimpsey (Renfrew Victoria) 1903.

Dunfermline connections

Thanks to you all for sorting out the Dunfermline club affiliations. However, I have another!

Brown was the goalkeeper versus England in 1897. The team line-up gives him as simply “Dunfermline” and further on Donald Cameron is given as “Dunfermline Juniors”. Can anyone confirm Brown’s club please?

Gordon Baird
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Re: Junior International records

Post by Gordon Baird » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:48 pm

Brown was the Dunfermline Juniors goalkeeper in the 1897 Scottish Junior Cup Final. I think his initial was J. but his first name eludes me at present.

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:21 pm

Gordon Baird wrote:Brown was the Dunfermline Juniors goalkeeper in the 1897 Scottish Junior Cup Final. I think his initial was J. but his first name eludes me at present.
Thanks for the information.

cowdenbeather
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Re: Junior International records

Post by cowdenbeather » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:38 pm

1923 - Johnstone of Hearts of Beath is Mick Johnstone

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:30 pm

cowdenbeather wrote:1923 - Johnstone of Hearts of Beath is Mick Johnstone
Thanks for the new details that have been added in.

From other sources we now have:

"J Brogan (St Roch's)" in 1963 as Jim Brogan later of Celtic & Scotland and thus giving us another full international

Rab Aitchison (Hearts & East Fife) - we had two Aitchisons before at Arniston Rangers and Bonnyrigg Rose but are now showing them as the same player - Rab Aitchison.

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:44 am

Since we published the last version of the Junior Internationals database we have continued, with the help of many people, to fill in the remaining gaps. The database includes all matches played by the SJFA XI and not just internationals. The details, line ups, etc for internationals are virtually complete although there are a few missing goalscorers.

The main work now has been to try and find a forename(s)/initial(s) for all the players to help us ensure that players with common surnames and who were capped while at more than one club are shown as one player. As of today we have exactly 2,000 players and we now only have 136 without a forename(s)/initial(s). With two exceptions these date from 1931 and earlier. Although we have had valuable contributions from many people this is mainly the work of Sureitza – thank you. The two exceptions played for the SJFA Amateur XI against the SFA Amateur XI in a trial in 1963

Hastings (Nithsdale Wanderers) – see separate thread titled: "Sam Hastings (Hamilton Accies, Clyde and others)."

Scott (Errol) – Prorege told us that Errol had both a D and a G Scott on their books in the 1962/63 season.

This is the current list of players with missing forenames from today's Junior clubs that we have posted on the Pie & Bovril Junior forum for help. As ever, if anyone can help it would be much appreciated.

Ardrossan Winton Rovers – Lindsay (1922).
Arniston Rangers – Mable (1923).
Ashfield - Bain (1912); Barrowman (1900); Campbell (1917); Dewar (1905); Dysart (1901).
Banks o' Dee - W Webster (1926).
Benburb - Leslie (1890); J McDonald (1894).
Blantyre Victoria - Beadle (1920); Hutchison (1904); J Paterson (1894); Robertson (1915).
Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic - Easton (1898).
Cambuslang Rangers – Chalmers (1918-19); McIntosh (1921).
Clydebank Juniors - Lang (1922).
Darvel – Allan (1927); Findlay (1927); Nisbet (1906).
Girvan - Murray (1920).
Glasgow Perthshire – Bennie (1927); Houston (1899); Keith (1926); Knox (1927); McDonald (1900); McKay (1921).
Larkhall Thistle - Creechan (1924).
Maryhill - Johnstone (1921).
Muirkirk - Grant (1915).
Penicuik - Hornal (1922).
Pollok - Stenton (1922).
Renfrew - Brown (1916-20); Croall (1914).
Shettleston – Jamieson (1924).
Tranent - Pow (1922).
Vale of Clyde - Cunningham (1899); Lavity (1904); Linnen 1899; D Livingston(e) (1894); Smith (1904); Whyte (1898),
Yoker Athletic – Hillis (1925); Kennedy (1927); Prentice (1891).

ScottishFA
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Re: Junior International records

Post by ScottishFA » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:28 pm

Some answers, by looking through club histories and news reports:

Blantyre Vics: Beadle was in fact Beedie: William A C Beedie, who played over 200 games for Portsmouth in the 1920s.

Clydebank: Lang should read Laing; I think this is probably James Laing who then played for Strathclyde, Bathgate and Third Lanark.

Penicuik: Charles Hornal, goalkeeper who was previously with Gala Fairydean and a student at Edinburgh University.

And just for clarification, those two Benburb players came from the previous club, as the present Benburb was founded in 1899.

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