Junior International records

Scottish Football Answers to Questions
Gordon Baird
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Re: Junior International records

Post by Gordon Baird » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:31 pm

Could the Blairhall Colliery player be Pat Wilson? He signed for Dunfermline in August 1962 as a sixteen year old and later played for Aberdeen, Raith & Cowdenbeath. I didn't know he'd played for Scotland Juniors.

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:09 pm

Prorege - thanks for the two names that I have now added in.

Gordon - Thanks. He played in one of the non-cap SJFA XI games we are including. This was on 29 September 1962 versus Forfarshire Junior Football Association at Arbroath. Looking at John Litster’s disk it shows Pat Wilson signing for Dunfermline on 13 August 1962 (provisional?) from Blairhall Colliery. It looks like him.

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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:05 pm

Some new line-ups have been found and as other sources are now drying up we have 107 players remaining with no forename(s)/initial(s). Here is the current list.

As ever, any help would be very much appreciated.

These players are divided into three lists – present clubs, defunct clubs and no known club. The lists are in alphabetical order of club and the year after each player’s name is the year they played for the SJFA XI.

For the definition of “Present” and “Defunct”. We have taken on board Andy’s comment on a previous post and taken this quite literally. So Girvan [1] is not today’s Girvan club that dates from 1944. Similarly Benburb [1] is an earlier club with the same name as today’s club. Although Mugiemoss was one of the two clubs that amalgamated to form Dyce FC we have treated it as defunct.

PRESENT CLUBS

Arniston Rangers [2] - Mable (1923)
Ashfield - Coventry (1893); Bain (1912); Dewar (1905); Dysart (1901); Mackay (1935)
Blantyre Victoria - Hutchison (1904); Robertson (1915)
Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic - Easton (1898)
Cambuslang Rangers [2] - McIntosh (1921)
Darvel - Findlay (1927); Nisbet (1906)
Glasgow Perthshire - Bennie (1927); Houston (1899); Keith (1926); Knox (1927); McDonald (1900); McKay (1921)
Kilsyth Rangers [2] - Brown (1922)
Maryhill - Johnstone (1921)
Muirkirk - Grant (1915)
Renfrew - Brown (1916 & 1920)
Saltcoats Victoria (2) - Struthers (1965)
Shettleston - Jamieson (1924)
Vale of Clyde - Cunningham (1899); Linnen (1899); Smith (1904); Whyte (1898); Hillis (1925)
Yoker Athletic - Kennedy (1927); Prentice (1891)

DEFUNCT CLUBS

Airdrieonians 'A' - McKinlay (1896)
Argyll (Aberdeen) - Cotton (1926)
Benburb [1] - Leslie (1890)
Blantyre Celtic - Hannigan (1924); Stewart (1920)
Burnbank Athletic [1] - Wallace (1897)
Burnbank Athletic [2] - Hunter (1927); Thomson (1920)
Cadzow Oak - McNair (1901)
Cadzow St Anne's - McNulty (1926)
Cambuslang Hibernian - McCue (1896)
Captain Colt's Rovers - Boag (1896)
Coalburn - Kerr (1929)
Corporation Cleansing Department - Wilson (1928)
Crown Athletic [1] - McCulloch (1893); Young (1895)
Dalry Primrose - McDonald (1898)
Dalziel Rovers - Irvine (1907); Johnston (1901)
Denny Athletic - Buist (1905)
Douglas Water Thistle - Henderson (1913)
Drongan - Morrison (1920)
Dumbarton Albion - Cairney (1898)
Dunaskin Lads - Logan (1921)
Dundee Arnot - Graham (1908)
Dundee Harp - Donald (1922)
Dunrobin Athletic - Taylor (1890)
Duntocher Hibernian [1] - Grieve (1904); Smith (1899)
Earnock Rovers [2] - Miller (1909)
Edinburgh Renton [1] - Grant (1897); Winton (1899)
Edinburgh Rosebery - Hay (1922); Short (1922)
Errol - Scott (1963)
Girvan (1) - Murray (1920)
Grange Rovers - McIntosh (1931); McNair (1905)
Hamilton West End Rangers - Gray (1889 & 1890); Rowan (1889); Sneddon (1890)
Harthill Athletic [1] - Halliday (1897)
Kelburne - Murray (1896)
Lenzie [2] - Grey (1897)
Maryhill Myrtle - Shearer (1893)
Milngavie - Kyle (1890); Ross (1891)
Moore Park - Hosie (1897)
Mossend Celtic - McNamee (1893)
Mugiemoss - Tough (1911)
Muirkirk Ex-Service Athletic - Welsh (1920)
Neilston Victoria - Gowans (1906)
Nithsdale Wanderers - Hastings (1963)
Old Kilpatrick [3] - Stewart (1922)
Parkhead - Murray (1898); Nicol (1897)
Possilpark - McFarlane (1889)
Renfrew Victoria - Campbell (1904); Wylie (1895)
Shotts United - Timmins (1917)
St Johnstone YMCA - Paterson (1926)
St Ninian's Thistle - Clark (1908)
Stevenston Thistle - McMaster (1917)
Stirling Emmet [2] - Walls (1923)
Strathclyde [2] - Brown (1903); Crum (1898); Harley (1900); Leslie (1900); Martin (1913); McMurray (1927); Montgomery (1897)
Thornliebank Juniors - Steveley (1898)
Woodburn - Gibson (1889)

NO KNOWN CLUB

Kyle (1893)
Rooney (1893)
Weeks (1893)

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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:30 pm

No sooner had I pressed "submit" for the last post than Sureitza found the clubs for the three players at the end. We already have a forename for one (Kyle) and so we can take him off the list leaving these two.

Mossend Celtic - Rooney (1893)
Vale of Clyde - Weeks (1893)

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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:01 am

As a few more matches emerge we have only one missing forename from 1931 and after. Can anyone help with the forename of a former Glenafton Athletic full back with the surname Jaap?

He was at Glenafton in 1961. I do not think he played Senior football. John Litster’s disk has a Calum Jaap who played in the 1970’s and very early 1980’s. He was a centre half, had a brief spell with Queen’s Park but mostly played in the Juniors (including Kilwinning Rangers, Ardrossan Winton Rangers, Troon & Irvine Victoria). He may be a relation given the uncommon surname.

Thank you.

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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:38 pm

bluedragon wrote:As a few more matches emerge we have only one missing forename from 1931 and after. Can anyone help with the forename of a former Glenafton Athletic full back with the surname Jaap?

He was at Glenafton in 1961. I do not think he played Senior football. John Litster’s disk has a Calum Jaap who played in the 1970’s and very early 1980’s. He was a centre half, had a brief spell with Queen’s Park but mostly played in the Juniors (including Kilwinning Rangers, Ardrossan Winton Rangers, Troon & Irvine Victoria). He may be a relation given the uncommon surname.

Thank you.
Problem solved!

Sureitza has found that “Jaap” is actually the "John L Japp" who also played against Northern Ireland in 1961 before going on to have a season at Third Lanark (1961/62) and Hamilton Academical (1962/63).

For those interested, we hope to make another, updated version of the database available soon through Brian McColl’s Scottish Football Historical Archive. We are doing some last checks at present. For those who have helped so far there are still gaps that need to be filled! As always, we would also be very interested if anyone spots any errors or has additional information.

We have 2,070 players named but are still looking for some line-ups and goalscorers in the 363 matches we have listed.

Boabthe warrior
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Re: Junior International records

Post by Boabthe warrior » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:53 pm

Denny Athletic - Buist 1905 is Jas Buist (source Falkirk Herald 11.03.1905)

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:20 am

Boabthewarrior - Many thanks for that forename.

Snuff
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Re: Junior International records

Post by Snuff » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:30 pm

In the list of present clubs - you list Muirkirk as having one internationalist, Grant, in 1915.

I had a look at an anthology of articles from the Muirkirk Advertiser, but, while it confirms Grant as playing at that time - no first name unfortunately.

However, his club was the now-defunct Muirkirk Athletic, which had no connection to the present Muirkirk Juniors.
Snuff

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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:01 am

Snuff - thank you for taking the time to try and find the forename of the Muirkirk player. Thanks as well for spotting the error in the club name that I will correct.

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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:25 am

Thank you for all the help in filling in gaps in the records of Scottish Junior Football Association XI matches and players. Please continue with your help there is still more to do!

Here is a link to the second and updated version of the records. The first version was issued on 7 January 2018.

http://www.scottish-football-historical ... onals.xlsx

Thanks to Brian McColl for continuing to host the records on his Scottish Football Historical Archive website.

With your help together with help from others and our own work, Sureitza and I have been able to add a further 16 matches to make a total of 368. We believe we have found all the international matches played against the other countries in the British Isles but there are probably other games, e.g. friendlies, benefits, etc. still to be found. We have 2,088 players listed and we are only missing 116 forenames. However, we have some missing line-ups with 408 players’ names missing.

Since the previous version, alongside the additional matches, we have also included more forenames of players, details of captains, trainers and managers and, where we can find it, notes of substitutes who were used. We have also been able to make corrections to surname spellings and club affiliations to the records we already had.

We would appreciate any more help that you can give. Some of the gaps are from fairly recent matches and so someone might have an old programme or teamsheet hidden away somewhere that might help. On the other hand, someone might have played in one of the matches! That last sentence is not as odd as it seems! A month ago at a match I met a former internationalist who played in a match in the 1980’s where we were missing some details and needed others confirming. He filled every gap for me and confirmed the accuracy of what we already had!

We would also appreciate any help in adding notes of points of interest to the entries for individual players. We have made a start on this but there is much more to do. Here is a sample of what we have at present.

Youngest captain – Norrie Corbett (Musselburgh Athletic) 16 years 272 days.
Brothers – Dave (Newtongrange Star) & Frank (Edinburgh City) Mackay; Bobby Dalry Primrose & Alex Walker, William & James McLennan (Saltcoats Victoria). The McLennans were the only brothers to play in the same Junior Cup winning and Junior Scotland team.
Players with famous siblings - Billy Murdoch (Kilsyth Rangers), Martin Ferguson (Kirkintilloch Rob Roy) and Gibby Ormond (Bo’ness United).
Players with famous fathers - Gary Lennox (Dalry Thistle) and Frank (Burnbank Athletic) and James (Maryhill) McMenemy.
Golfers - Jimmy Lawson (Carnoustie Panmure) and Andrew Miller (Annbank United).
Doctors - Dr Adam Little (Blantyre Victoria) and Dr Andrew Miller (Annbank United). The grandson of Archie McLeod (Parkhead) became Doctor Who (David Tennant).
Looks like but isn't - Danny McGrain (Blantyre Victoria) is the Clyde one and not the Celtic version. Jimmy McMullan (Denny Hibs) is not the Jimmy McMullan who captained the Wembley Wizards.
English-born players - Bert Tickle (Parkhead) and Steve Hancock (Newtongrange Star).
Players who have played in a European Cup Final - Jimmy Johnstone (Blantyre Celtic), Steve Chalmers (Ashfield), Evan Williams (Vale of Leven), Pat Crerand (Duntocher Hibs), Kenny Dalglish (Cumbernauld United) and Jim Brogan (St Roch’s),
Dynasties - The Westwaters of Dunipace John (1908), George (1924) and Willie (1952)
First substitution for an injured player during the course of a game – Fred Kelling (Penicuik) in 1907.

Thank you.

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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Fri May 25, 2018 10:04 am

Here are four lists of players capped at both Junior and Full levels. I do not know how the cool smilie appeared against Kenny Campbell's name!

If anyone spots an error or has some additional information please do let us know.

The first list is of Scottish Senior Clubs in order of the total number of players who won full caps while at the club and had been previously capped at Junior level against international opposition.

Celtic (9)
Rangers (9)
Heart of Midlothian (6)
Aberdeen (5)
Motherwell (4)
Hibernian (3)
Third Lanark (3)
St Mirren (2)
Airdrieonians (1)
Clyde (1)
Dundee (1)
East Fife (1)
Falkirk (1)
Kilmarnock (1)
Partick Thistle (1)
Queen's Park (1)
St Bernards (1)

The second list is of the players that make up those totals. It is in alphabetical order of their Senior club with the number of full caps added after. After the Junior club is the number of international matches played followed by other SJFA XI matches. Alexander Bennett and Harry Rennie won full caps at two Senior clubs and is the reason for this list having 48 players and the first list totalling 50 players.

Matt Armstrong (Port Glasgow Athletic Juniors 1-0) (Aberdeen 2)
Donald Colman (Maryhill 3-0) (Aberdeen 4)
Willie Lennie (Maryhill 1-0) (Aberdeen 2)
Benny Yorston (Mugiemoss 1-0) (Aberdeen 1)
George Mulhall (Kilsyth Rangers 1-0) (Aberdeen and Sunderland 3)
Drew Jarvie (Kilsyth Rangers 2-0) (Airdrieonians 3)
Bobby Templeton (Kilmarnock Rugby XI 1-0) (Aston Villa, Newcastle United, Woolwich Arsenal and Kilmarnock 11)
Steve Chalmers (Ashfield 1-0) (Celtic 5)
Johnnie Crum (Ashfield 1-0) (Celtic 2)
Dixie Deans (Neilston 1-1) (Celtic 2)
Bobby Hogg (Royal Albert 3-0) (Celtic 1)
Jimmy Johnstone (Blantyre Celtic 1-0) (Celtic 23)
Tommy McInally (St Anthony's 2-0) (Celtic 2)
Paul Wilson (Blantyre Celtic 1-0) (Celtic 1)
Pat Crerand (Duntocher Hibernian 3-0) (Celtic and Manchester United 16)
Alexander Bennett (Rutherglen Glencairn 4-0) (Celtic and Rangers 11)
Jock Brown (Glenburn Rovers and Shawfield 3-0) (Clyde 1)
Willie Muir (Glenbuck Athletic 1-0) (Dundee 1)
Danny Liddle (Wallyford Bluebell 1-0) (East Fife 3)
James Croal (Falkirk Juniors 2-0) (Falkirk 3)
Bobby Dougan (Shawfield 3-0) (Heart of Midlothian 1)
George Key (Parkhead 1-0) (Heart of Midlothian 1)
Peter Nellies (Douglas Water Thistle 3-0) (Heart of Midlothian 2)
Bobby Walker (Dalry Primrose 1-0) (Heart of Midlothian 29)
Harry Rennie (Greenock Volunteers 1-0) (Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian 13)
Dave Mackay (Newtongrange Star 2-0) (Heart of Midlothian and Tottenham Hotspur 22)
Jim Scott (Bo'ness United 1-0) (Hibernian 1)
Jimmy Dunn (St Anthony's 1-1) (Hibernian and Everton 6)
Brian Martin (Shotts Bon Accord 3-1) (Motherwell 2)
Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle 2-0) (Motherwell 5)
Pat Quinn (Bridgeton Waverley 1-0) (Motherwell 4)
Andy Weir (Arthurlie 1-0) (Motherwell 6)
Kenny Campbell (Cambuslang Rangers 2-0) (Liverpool and Partick Thistle 8)
Andrew Richmond (Parkhead 2-0) (Queen's Park 1)
Andrew Cunningham (Newmilns 1-0) (Rangers 12)
John Gilchrist (St Anthony's 1-0) (Rangers 1)
Jimmy Gordon (Renfrew Victoria 2-0) (Rangers 10)
Dougie Gray (Mugiemoss 2-0) (Rangers 10)
Tommy Low (Parkhead 1-0) (Rangers 1)
Nicol Smith (Darvel 1-0) (Rangers 12)
Scot Symon (Dundee Violet 1-0) (Rangers 1)
Alex Scott (Bo'ness United 2-0) (Rangers & Everton 16)
Bob Foyers (Burnbank Swifts 1-0) (St Bernards 2)
James Hamilton (Vale of Clyde 2-0) (St Mirren 1)
Hugh Morgan (Longriggend Wanderers 1-0) (St Mirren and Liverpool 2)
Jimmy Brownlie (Blantyre Victoria 1-0) (Third Lanark 16)
Jack Fyfe (South Western 1-2) (Third Lanark 1)
James Raeside (Parkhead 1-0) (Third Lanark 1)

The third list is in the same format as the second list but is of those Junior players who only won full caps at English clubs.

Johnny Kelly (Arthurlie 1-2) (Barnsley 2)
Ian Wallace (Yoker Athletic 1-0) (Coventry City 3)
John Anderson (Arthurlie 2-0) (Leicester City 1)
James Lawrence (Glasgow Perthshire 1-0) (Newcastle United 1)
Robert Beattie (Kilwinning Rangers 2-0) (Preston North End 1)
Jimmy Connor (Glasgow Perthshire 1-0) (Sunderland 4)

The fourth and final list is of those full internationals who only played for Junior Scotland in non-international matches.

Jim Brogan (St Roch's 0-1) (Celtic 4)
Kenny Dalglish (Cumbernauld United 0-2) (Celtic and Liverpool 102)
James Easson (Carnoustie Panmure 0-1) (Portsmouth 3)
Gordon Smith (Dundee North End 0-1) (Hibernian 18)
David Stewart (Minerva 0-1) (Queen's Park 3)
Charles Pringle (Maryhill 0-1) (St Mirren 1)

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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:22 am

Sureitza and I have now found 376 matches played by a SJFA XI team that include internationals, benefit matches, matches against county select teams, tour matches, etc.

In the early years of the Second World War the SJFA put out select teams often to help raise funds for war-time appeals. The players involved were a mixture of young players (a 16 year old Gordon Smith), servicemen on leave or stationed in Scotland and players in reserved occupations (mines/shipyards). We have also found full Scottish International Jimmy Easson (Portsmouth) playing for the SJFA XI while guesting for Carnoustie Panmure.

Not surprisingly for some of these players it is proving difficult to find a forename/nickname as the war may have robbed them of their best footballing years and they did not re-appear in Junior or Senior football when football was re-established after the end of hostilities. However, if anyone can help with any of the names on this list it would, as always, be very much appreciated. Here is a list from matches played in 1941.

TODAY'S CLUBS

Armadale Thistle
Banks
Keenan
Arthurlie
Hynd
Benburb
Brooks
Clydebank Juniors (treated as today’s Clydebank for these purposes)
Grassie
Hall Russell's
Baxter
Petershill
Charles
Kerr
McCreadie

DEFUNCT CLUBS

Coatbridge St Patrick's
C Quinn
Elmwood (Dundee)
McKay
Hillside United (Angus)
Wilson
ITC (No 9 Infantry Training Centre, Aberdeen)
Lawson

Thank you.

ScottishFA
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Re: Junior International records

Post by ScottishFA » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:05 am

As a curious sideline to the two Jimmy McMullans from Denny, it seems they have been confused in more than one place.

The Wembley Wizard's date of birth is usually given as 26 March 1895. However, that turns out to be wrong, although there was a James McMullan born in Denny on 26 March 1890 - and that was the junior internationalist. He died in 1939 and there are obituaries in the local papers.

The more famous James McMullan was actually born on 7 February 1894 in Stirling Row, Dunipace, parents John McMullan and Annie Corr (who were unmarried at the time but did marry later that year).

The two players were cousins.

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Re: Junior International records

Post by Partick Thistle » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:58 pm

Andy, thanks for the new info on Jimmy's birth!

Worth pointing out that both Jimmy McMullan's and Pat McMullan (another relative?) played for Denny Hibs at the same time, as noted in the Denny Hibs history that was published in the Evening Times in 1933. Little wonder there's some degree of confusion!

The Dundee Evening Telegraph (6th October 1913) reports that "McMullan, of Denny Hibernian, has signed for Partick Thistle" describing him as a "clever and sturdy little half-back".

I think the Wembley Wizard played with Denny between 1911-13 (he certainly played in the Junior Cup final in 1912), but I often see it reported that he started out with Third Lanark circa 1913. Thinking that maybe he went there on loan from Denny - can anyone verify that?
William

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