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S.F.L.S Versus E.S. in 1910

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:58 pm
by topmab

this is my first post so please be gentle with me!

Does anyone hold any info on the above match which I am interpreting to mean Scottish Football League Select Versus English Select which took place in 1910 ? Or can anyone suggest a source which might be able to provide details?

I am lookng for names of the Scotland Players in particular, the date, scoreline, crowd etc.

Many Thanks


Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:57 pm
by Scottish
Hi there and welcome to the Forum. We're generally not too rough :D

Our friends atLondon Hearts have a full list of Scottish League internationals, dates, scores, line-ups, crowds etc and in 1910 there were games against the Football League, Irish League & Southern League

But I don't think the SFL would label a side as select and the Football League always described itself as such, never as the English League.

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:11 am
by topmab
Hi Scottish,

many thanks for your helpful and informative reply. You all seem to be a civilised bunch on this messageboard and I feel at home already.

I will follow up you suggestion and see what it turns up.

:D :D

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:16 am
by Sat31March1928

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:05 pm
by Scottish
topmab wrote: You all seem to be a civilised bunch on this messageboard

House-trained, yes. Civilised? Mibbes aye, mibbes naw :D

Stick around and you'll find out.

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:51 pm
by topmab
Thank you to 'Sat31March1928' for all your help and thanks to Scottish for the 'maybees aye, maybees naw comment'. I'm presuming there are one or two visitors to this messageboard from the 'darkside' :roll:
If there are, hopefully they will steer clear of this thread.

I will go away now and consider the evidence presented as per my original request to see if I can make sense of it all.


Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:57 am
by Cinneide
What was the relationship between the Southern League and the Football League?

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:21 am
by topmab
Cinneide wrote:What was the relationship between the Southern League and the Football League?
That's a darn good question. If I might add, why would what we know as the SL today be important enough to warrant the Scottish Football League as opponents? :?:

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:53 am
by Scottish
Briefly, the Southern League was regarded as almost on a par with the FL and the SFL. Spurs won the FA Cup in 1901 as a SL side and Southampton reached two FA Cup Finals in 1900 and 1902.

The FL consisted mainly of sides from the north and midlands. There were a few southern teams like Arsenal and later Chelsea and Spurs but the SL was a strong organisation in its own right. Strong enough to be included in official meetings with government during WW1 along with the FL and SFL over wartime football.

Certainly the SL were stronger opponents than the Irish League.

After the war the SL was adopted en masse as a new Third Division and a year later became the Third Division (South). Here's a link to the first Third Division table. You can see from it the number of big cities it includes.

After assimilation the SL declined but still remained the top league outside the FL until the formation of the national Alliance Premier League (now the Conference) in 1979.

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:35 am
by Cinneide
Thanks - that's a great answer.

I'd assume that some Southern League teams had either been cherry-picked, or joined the FL by stealth, by 1921. I have West Ham being represented in the Scottish League v Southern League game in 1911, and they were in the 2nd Division by 1921.

According to the LondonHearts site Scotland played 5 times against the Southern League, between 1910 and 1914. I guess the war came along, and afterwards there was no desire to revive the fixture.

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:00 am
by Scottish
There was a gradual process often more to do with financial prospects than playing success. Arsenal (then Woolwich Arsenal) were the first southern club to join the FL (1893 - a year before the Southern League was established). They were on their own until 1897 when Luton Town joined but they lost their place in 1900.

The first real sign of southern clubs wanting to join the FL came in 1905 when Chelsea and Clapton Orient joined. In Chelsea's case they were a new club with a rich backer and a ground. They'd never played a single game and they didn't even have a team but they were elected to the FL all the same.

That encouraged other London clubs. Fulham joined in 1907, Tottenham in 1908 and West Ham in 1919.

Even by this stage the only 'southern' team in the FL from outside London was Luton and they had lasted for just three seasons. Cardiff City were elected in 1920 and after the adoption of the SL teams for the Third Division that year normal promotion and relegation took its course. Of the 22 clubs that formed the Third Division 15 have subsequently played in the top flight. That compares favourably with the Third North (formed 1921-22) .Of the twenty clubs that formed that division only Grimsby Town have played in the top flight and they weren't a new club, having been in Division Two in 1919-20 and the Third in 1920-21.

By comparison of the 22 clubs in the re-formed Scottish Second Division nine (if you count Dundee Hibs) have subsequently played in the top flight and of the sixteen clubs that comprised the Scottish Third in 1923-24 just two - East Stirlingshire and Queen of the South - have subsequently played in the top flight.And 'Shire - like Grimsby - were a retread from a higher level.

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:12 am
by Sat31March1928
If you click on the tick Image on the results pages. It brings up the Scotsman report.