Can Spain & Portugal save Europe?

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Post by Scottish » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:43 pm

World Cup Final referees (counting the final pool match in 1950 as the final), their age and the stage their country exited the tournament. *= host nation

1930 Jean Langenus, 38 (Belgium) Group Stage
1934 Ivan Eklind, 28 (Sweden) QF
1938 Georges Capdevile, 38 (France)* QF
1950 George Reader, 53 (England) Group Stage
1954 William Ling, 45 (England) QF
1958 Maurice Guigue, 45 (France) SF
1962 Nikolai Latyshev, 48 (USSR) QF
1966 Gottfried Dienst, 46 (Switzerland) Group Stage
1970 Rudi Glockner, 41 (East Germany) Did not qualify for finals
1974 Jack Taylor, 44 (England) Did not qualify for finals
1978 Sergio Gonella, 45 (Italy) 4th place
1982 Arnaldo Cesar Coelho, 39 (Brazil) Second stage
1986 Romualdo Arppi Filho, 47 (Brazil) QF
1990 Edgardo Codesal Mendez, 39 (Mexico) Did not qualify for finals
1994 Sandor Puhl, 39 (Hungary) Did not qualify for finals
1998 Said Belqola, 41 (Morocco) Group stage
2002 Pierluigi Collina, 42 (Italy) Round of sixteen
2006 Horacio Marcelo Elizondo, 42 (Argentina) QF

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Post by Scottish » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:09 pm

European Championship Final referees, their age and the stage their country exited the tournament.

1960 Arthur Ellis, 46 (England) Did not enter
1964 Arthur Holland, 41 (England) Did not qualify, preliminary round
1968 Gottfried Dienst, 48 (Switzerland) Did not qualify, group stage
1972 Ferdinand Marschall, 48 (Austria) Did not qualify, group stage
1976 Sergio Gonella, 43 (Italy), Did not qualify, group stage
1980 Nicolae Rainea, 46 (Romania) Did not qualify, group stage
1984 Vojtech Christov, 39 (Czechoslovakia) Did not qualify, group stage
1988 Michel Vautrot, 42 (France) Did not qualify, group stage
1992 Bruno Galler, 45 (Switzerland) Did not qualify, group stage
1996 Pierluigi Pairetto, 43 (Italy) Qualified, group stage
2000 Anders Frisk, 37 (Sweden) Qualified, group stage
2004 Markus Merk 42 (Germany) Qualified, group stage
2008 Roberto Rosetti 40 (Italy) Qualified, QF

You can see that it is only when the tournament expanded to sixteen in 1996 that the final referee came from one of the contestants. Dienst & Gonella are the only men to referee both European & World finals.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:56 pm

The Dutch victory over Uruguay means that, irrespective of the result in the 3rd/4th match this tournament will produce the lowest number ever of European defeats by a South American side in a non-European World Cup. It also means that for the first time ever outside of Europe that Europe will have won more matches than South America in head-to-heads. Tonight's win was the fifth in succession against South America - another first - and it equals the previous best total number of win - also five - achieved in 1962, 1994 and 2002. All of those except the middle on brought a larger number of defeats.

More importantly than all that it means that for the first time ever a European team will win the World Cup outside Europe, vindicating those who claimed this was Europe's best chance to break their intercontinental duck. But the only ones who should crow about that are those precious few (if any) who weren't moaning a week or so ago about how poor Europe was doing.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:00 pm

One last point (for now) on the final referee. If it does go to Howard Webb (and I still go for Archundia) then he would become the first man to referee the European Cup Final and the World Cup Final in the same season.

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Post by lbb » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:21 pm

It is illuminating that even in a relatively poor European showing, 3 of the last 4 countries are from Europe and the Final will be contested by 2 European teams. It illustrates something that isn't always apparent but every World Cup basically boils down to the strongest European teams...and Brazil. No-one else really has a look in. We mention Argentina but have they really been serious contenders since the Maradona years? They get to the knockout stages and then they fall over. No-one from Asia and Africa has a chance and the likes of the US, Mexico and the rest of the South Americans are really 'last 16 and out' teams.

I'm so proud of Europe tonight. :wink:

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Post by Scottish » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:04 pm

On the European point, remember also this was Europe's worst ever in terms of last eight participants. Fairer to say that of the traditional European powers in the game that three - the semi-finalists - were capable of dealing with teams from other continents and another three - France, Italy & England - were not.

Of their six matches so far Holland have beaten four non-European teams with no draws or losses. In their five so Germany have beaten three such sides without so much as losing a goal and Spain have beaten all three non-European teams they faced.

OTOH France had a draw and two defeats, Italy two draws and England two draws.

Other than the semi-finalists only Portugal and Slovenia had a decent record.

Europe v The Rest of the World, World Cup 2010 (with only the 3rd/4th match to be played between a European team and a non-European side.

Holland P4 W4 D0 L0 F8 A4 Pts 12
Germany P3 W3 D0 L0 F9 A0 Pts 9
Spain P3 W3 D0 L0 F5 A1 Pts 9
Portugal P3 W2 D1 L0 F7 A0 Pts 7
Slovenia P2 W1 D1 L0 F3 A2 Pts 4
Denmark P2 W1 D0 L1 F3 A4 Pts 3
Greece P3 W1 D0 L2 F2 A5 Pts 3
Italy P2 W0 D2 L0 F2 A2 Pts 2
England P2 W0 D2 L0 F1 A1 Pts 2
Switzerland P2 W0 D1 L1 F0 A1 Pts 1
Slovakia P2 W0 D1 L1 F1 A3 Pts 1
France P3 W0 D1 L2 F1 A4 Pts 1
Serbia P2 W0 D0 L2 F1 A3 Pts 0

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Post by Scottish » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:11 pm

Back to referees. Howard Webb is seeking to join a pretty exclusive group. Only nine men have officiated at both a European Cup Final and a World Cup or European Championship Final. And only one country - England - has produced more than one official to do so. England has had three such previous officials.

Just three men - Gottfried Dienst, Jack Taylor & Pierluigi Collina have reffed a European Cup Final and a World Cup Final.

Dienst is the only man to have been in charge of a European Cup Final (two in fact), European Championship and a World Cup Final.

Arthur Ellis (Eng) ECF 1956, Euro 1960
Gottfried Dienst (Swi) ECF 1961, 1965 WCF 1966, Euro 1968
Arthur Holland (Eng) ECF 1963, Euro 1964
Jack Taylor (Eng) ECF 1971, WCF 1974
Nicolae Rainea (Rom) Euro 1980, ECF 1983
Michel Vautrot (Fra) ECF 1986, Euro 1988
Sandor Puhl (Hun) WCF 1994, ECF 1997
Pierluigi Collina (Ita) ECF 1999, WCF 2002
Markus Merk (Ger) ECF 2003, Euro 2004

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:52 am

scottish wrote:More importantly than all that it means that for the first time ever a European team will win the World Cup outside Europe, vindicating those who claimed this was Europe's best chance to break their intercontinental duck. But the only ones who should crow about that are those precious few (if any) who weren't moaning a week or so ago about how poor Europe was doing.
:wink:

I'm not bothered enough to crow about it, but I certainly wasn't moaning a week ago either. Personally I think the continental difference of venues is largely irrelevant in these days of global player movement.

Europe / South America, who cares? I think it's more like the case that lbb says. Basically there is Germany, Italy and Brazil who are always there or thereabouts. A second tier of the likes of France, Spain, Argentina, Netherlands and perhaps England and Portugal (and maybe Mexico) who are usually last eight-ish sides but will occasionally fail to do that but sometimes peak and do better. And then the occasional unlikely nation who makes a run late into the tournament, perhaps down to luck of the draw meaning they avoided clashes with major nations, such as Uruguay this time, South Korea and Turkey in 02, Croatia in 98, Bulgaria and Sweden in 94, etc. Such sides rarely do so twice.

As such this World Cup hasn't been so untypical. Italy crashed and burned early but Germany are still there and a Brazil side that is far from their best of the last few years reached the last eight before running into an in form Dutch side. France, England and Portgual maybe under-achieved to a minor extent but even then England and Portgual were still only eliminated by sides of higher status ultimately. France are the new Dutch with their constant internal bickering helping them not one bit.

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Post by Scottish » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:16 am

Skyline Drifter wrote: And then the occasional unlikely nation who makes a run late into the tournament, perhaps down to luck of the draw meaning they avoided clashes with major nations, such as Uruguay this time, South Korea and Turkey in 02, Croatia in 98, Bulgaria and Sweden in 94, etc. Such sides rarely do so twice.
Much in what you say but a couple of points on this extract. Croatia beat Germany to get to the 1998 semis. South Korea eliminated Italy and Spain (though the legitimacy of how they did so is another matter). Bulgaria beat Argentina in the group stage in 1994 and Germany in the quarter-finals.

Poland (SF 1974, QF 1978, SF 1982) are a good example of an 'unfashionable' side to perform consistently well over a period of time.

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Post by lbb » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:18 am

Fair analysis, SD.

France and England looked as though they didn't want to be there, tbh. Italy wanted to stay but ultimately paid the price for a slow start.

The French clearly loathed Domenech and that was a huge factor in their squabbling. The obvious dissatisfaction in the England camp is more difficult to understand.

I think people underestimate how difficult the England players - British players in general, in fact - find it spending 4-6 weeks in a foreign country, away from familiar surroundings, family, friends, honest British grub, etc. It's a different mentality from their club football and not many English/British players go abroad, let alone make a success of it. I think Eriksson had realised by 2006 that the England players got bored very quickly when away together and that's why the WAG's were allowed to travel 4 years ago. Capello tried to impose something different, clearly not understanding the mentality of the group he was managing. I'm not saying the players are right - it's a job, not a holiday - but I think more than a few find it hard going and are almost glad when the tournament is over. I'm not sure Eriksson or Capello understood it nor what you could do to fix it.

I've enjoyed watching the Germans more than anyone - and there's not often you can say that. Spain have been a massive disappointment for me. Holland, like Brazil, are not playing in the style you would expect but they turned in some jaw-dropping performances - not for the first time - in Euro 2008 and it got them nowhere. Maybe they'd like to win the trophy for a change.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:22 am

scottish wrote:
Skyline Drifter wrote: And then the occasional unlikely nation who makes a run late into the tournament, perhaps down to luck of the draw meaning they avoided clashes with major nations, such as Uruguay this time, South Korea and Turkey in 02, Croatia in 98, Bulgaria and Sweden in 94, etc. Such sides rarely do so twice.
Much in what you say but a couple of points on this extract. Croatia beat Germany to get to the 1998 semis. South Korea eliminated Italy and Spain (though the legitimacy of how they did so is another matter). Bulgaria beat Argentina in the group stage in 1994 and Germany in the quarter-finals.

Poland (SF 1974, QF 1978, SF 1982) are a good example of an 'unfashionable' side to perform consistently well over a period of time.
Yes, I know they did. And I certainly didn't intend to imply unfashionable teams only get late in the tournament with a favourable draw. Inevitably on the odd occasion a big gun crashes early someone from the lesser lights has to have knocked them out. I just meant sometimes that is the reason. Half decent as Uruguay are, the reason they reached the semi final was partly that France imploded and partly that their run didn't take them through any of the other sides in the top couple of tiers of my scenario.

Poland is a reasonable point. Perhaps the Portugal of their generation. I'm not convinced the Portuguese will continue to be a second level nation if indeed they are one. They had a "Golden Generation" which has largely gone now.

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Post by Scottish » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:06 am

On the last two posts:

Yes, I've already mentioned the enforced isolation and how difficult it is for anyone to take for any length of time, no matter how well paid you are.

Uruguay? Yes, the draw helped them. Three of the top eight didn't make the quarter-finals so that opens up all sorts of possibilities.

Portugal? I tend to agree. The same thing happened in the 1960s. They had the great Benfica team which won two European Cups and played in five finals in seven years and also Sporting Lisbon won the Cup-Winners Cup. Their first World Cup finals appearance wasn't until 1966 when they were third. The then promptly vanished off the international map. Despite occasionally doing well in club football they made just one World Cup appearance between 1966-2002. They've played in more finals in the past eight years than in the previous seventy.

Nor is Cristiano Ronaldo any guarantee for them. Euesbio was only 24 in 1966 and you'd have got long odds against that being his first and last World Cup finals then.

So, yes, for some countries it comes and goes. Hungary are another good, if more distant, example. More surprising to me is how Holland have managed to stay at or near the top. They didn't 'emerge' until the 1970s but more often than not they manage at least once a decade to be major contenders for the big prizes.

All of which leads to the frightening thought that if smaller countries go through such phases that Scotland's last 'golden generation' may have ended with Davie McPherson & Alan McInally.

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Post by msdkfc » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:16 am

Well, Paul the psychic octopus has predicted Spain will beat Holland on Sunday night. If i were you David i'd be happy with that, he's not been wrong so far on 6 occasions during this World Cup!!

He also got 5 out of 6 predictions correct during Euro2008, the only one he got wrong was that he predicted Germany would beat Spain in the final.

He went for Spain on Wednesday night. Who knows if he genuinely believed that or if he was frightened that if he went against Spain again the Spanish might roast him on a spit or something? :lol:

Interestingly, some Germans have been sending him death threats since Wednesday, because he picked Spain and he was right. Messages have been left on his twitter page calling for him to be fried, barbequed, roasted, thrown in the shark tank and to be put into the paella mix :(

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Post by Scottish » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:58 am

msdkfc wrote:Well, Paul the psychic octopus has predicted Spain will beat Holland on Sunday night. (
Heard a good one the other day:

Q "What's got eight arms, no spine and makes World Cup predictions without having a clue about what's going on?"

A The Match Of The Day panel.

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Post by Scottish » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:25 pm

Spain has designed a new national flag for the final.

Image

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