Tyldesley

[scottish]

I also hate the way he refers to England as 'us' and 'we'.

Andy Townsend and Mark Lawrenson are also guilty of this. For all his many faults I don't think Alan Hansen has ever uttered the 'we' and 'us' words. Nor to the best of my recollection has Mick McCarthy. I can't say for certain though and am prepared to be corrected.

[scottish]

According to The Guardian's MBM match reports Martin Tyler and Efan Ekoku said that the failure of any of Spain's players to sing during the national anthem showed splits in the camp. The Spanish anthem has no words as I can testify given the loud and tuneless shoutalong emanating from the people downstairs from me tonight.

Speaking of these reports am I the only one growing tired of their repeated links to an old Jock Wallace clip from the 1983-84 League Cup final? I think someone needs to tell the reporter we get the point. We know who he supports. As for his assertion that "Iniesta Willie Waddels down the left," well, I doubt if Waddell (correct spelling) ever spent much time on the left wing in his life. But then again I suppose there are precious few You Tube videos of Waddell in action so Scott Murray (the hack in question) is stuck with his repeated Wallace videos.

[msdkfc]

I also hate the way he refers to England as 'us' and 'we'.

Andy Townsend and Mark Lawrenson are also guilty of this. For all his many faults I don't think Alan Hansen has ever uttered the 'we' and 'us' words. Nor to the best of my recollection has Mick McCarthy. I can't say for certain though and am prepared to be corrected.

Stating the obvious here but Lawro is another who falls to pieces when commentating. I don't mind him as a pundit but he's a terrible, terrible co-commentator. Offers next to nothing, no insight and little reading of the game. It's just a series of one-liners, bad jokes, sarcasm and put-downs.
I actually felt angry when he came out with the line 'he isn't getting any satisfaction is he' when the camera picked out Mick Jagger during the Germany-England game. This clown is out there on a 4 week holiday of a lifetime (read junket) to cover the world cup and should be treating it professionally and doing his job properly.

As for Andy Townsend, i simply lost all respect for him when he said only 1 or 2 of the Germans would get into the England team. Or was it none?! I can't remember. Anyway enough said..

[scottish]

I actually felt angry when he came out with the line 'he isn't getting any satisfaction is he' when the camera picked out Mick Jagger during the Germany-England game.

Well, you can't always get what you want - as I think it was Peter Drury said the night before when Sir Michael was sat next to Bill Clinton watching the USA get beat.

Jagger has become something of a Jonah at this World Cup. Apart from that match he also turned up at Germany v England then went with his Brazilian son to watch Holland make the semis. He then transferred his support to Argentina and we know what happened next.

Who knows who he'll be backing in the final but at the risk of incurring your wrath let's just say that so far his backing has had a tendency to paint it black.


On a personal note to msdkfc: if you think that pun's bad you should see the email I sent to wee Dougie when I discovered his fanatical devotion to all things Status Quo.

[Snuff]

David:

'Come On', 'Tell Me': was it a case of 'Sticky Fingers' which caused you to post the same comment twice last night?

Or did a celebrating Catalonian, as you during your 'Exile On Main Street' Barcelona, 'In Another Land' tell you: 'Hey You Get off My Cloud'?

The match wasn't a classic - but are semi-finals ever brilliant? I wouldn't go as far as to say Spain were 'Winning Ugly' - they were always the more-likely team to win. But I was delighted when, after missing the earlier header, Carlos Poyol got 'Off The Hook' by scoring that great winner. So, after 'A Long Long While', Spain are in the World Cup Final.

In the 'Aftermatch' we have to think: 'What A Shame' for the Germans, who certainly entertained, but this squad will win big in the future.

They may be 'Sad Sad Sad' this morning; for them, 'It's All Over Now', but there's 'No Use In Crying' in the 'Aftermath'. The Germans are 'Sad Sad Sad' today, but they'll be back.

You had to 'Start Me Up' this morning.

Enjoy the party.

[LEATHERSTOCKING]

At the very least, last night`s result kills stone dead any English mantra of,"At least we lost to the Cup winners."

[Snuff]

So long as none of the SFA "blazers" tries to come out with that one - should Holland win on Sunday.

[lbb]

I sensed a bit of tension between Guy Mowbray and Mark Lawrenson on BBC last night. At one point, Lawrenson was rambling on about something he knew nothing about when he suddenly exclaimed 'are you alright?' at Mowbray. There was a slight pause and then Mowbray mumbled 'yes, thanks for asking.' I'm intrigued to know what Mowbray was doing. Was he pretending to hang himself whilst Lawrenson was speaking? I know I'd be tempted.

[msdkfc]

I might not have minded if Peter Drury had said one of those puns, it's just Lawro's whole tone and attitude. He'll sit there saying nothing for what seems like 5 minutes then throw in that line. The girly voice grates too, especially when he said Spain were 'powderpuff', which seemed right out of context!

For me, in terms of the media, the most enjoyable parts of the WC have been listening to Gabrielle Marcotti and Raphael Honigstein on ESPN's South Africa Nightly, and Tim Vickery and Guillem Balague on their regular visits onto 5 live. You learn a lot and feel educated and entertained at the same time.

[scottish]

David: 'Come On', 'Tell Me': was it a case of 'Sticky Fingers' which caused you to post the same comment twice last night? Enjoy the party.

Come On! Wild Horses couldn't persuade me to explain why so don't Bitch about it. You would have needed a Heart Of Stone not to feel happy for the Spanish fans last night. It was enjoyable watching them celebrate with car horns, fireworks and a few got really overwhelmed. Grown men declared they no longer felt a Fool To Cry and I sat and watched As Tears Go By and more than a few of them needed an Emotional Rescue but I didn't join the celebrations in case they got out of hand as I'm not really a Street Fighting Man.

In fact some are still celebrating. Their cheers will Not Fade Away for some time. My friend Angie asked me if I Got The Blues because Scotland weren't taking part and said she wished Spain were playing England in the final. I told her again just as I'd told her The Last Time she asked that I didn't want England in the final as I have no Sympathy For The Devil.

[Snuff]

scottishleague.net, the last refuge of the Baby Bookmers, still convinced we were Born to Run!

Leaving aside Tyldesley, Drury and the rest, rather good article by Brian 'Pit Bull' Moore in today's Daily Telegraph.

I must admit, and not because we are both members of Rugby Union's Front Row Mafia, I like Moore and now the Telegraph are not restricting him to rugby, he's turned into a marvellous sports writer.

I appreciate I shouldn't like the Telegraph, but, if you can put aside its politics, as a newspaper of record it leaves the Herald and The Scotsman miles behind.

[Skyline Drifter]

I also hate the way he refers to England as 'us' and 'we'.

Andy Townsend and Mark Lawrenson are also guilty of this. For all his many faults I don't think Alan Hansen has ever uttered the 'we' and 'us' words. Nor to the best of my recollection has Mick McCarthy. I can't say for certain though and am prepared to be corrected.

I've heard Hansen on rare occasions refer to England as "we". It's an occasional slip of the tongue though and on at least one occasion I've seen him actually pick himself up on it and have a laugh at himself for saying it.

I think I've probably said it before on this site but I really don't mind any of that and don't know why it continues to bother people. These guys are employed to talk about England and English football full time all year round and if they slip into using "us" and "we" as a result I don't see the problem. I especially don't see the problem with the likes of Townsend, Lawrenson and McCarthy who are all born Englishmen. I don't see why the fact they played for Ireland should automatically preclude them ever having an attachment or support for their nation of birth either. Hansen of course isn't English in any way but he does live there, he is married to an Englishwoman and he is employed to discuss English football on a full time basis. Alan Green of course is a Northern Irishman by birth but likewise makes his living working in and talking about England. I don't especially like Green much but so what if he uses a "we".

[msdkfc]

Fair do's, i actually agree with you about Lawro, McCarthy and Townsend. But let's be honest, with Alan Green it's not as simple as just the fact that he's spent so long living and working in England so he'll have an afinity with them. I'd guess there are other, more sinister reasons too, which we wouldn't really want to go into.

Plus he is so vociferous and over the top in his support for England. I read he openly rooted for England against his own country during his commentaries on 5 live on the WC2006 qualifiers between the two, which was disgraceful IMO.

And anyway, for example, i'm sure if David stays in Barcelona for several years he'll develop an affinity for Spain, he possibly/probably has. But no way would he cheer them on if they play Scotland, and i'd seriously doubt he'd ever refer to them as 'us' or 'we'. He's Scottish, and therefore supports Scotland, and always has.

[Snuff]

To be fair to Alan Hansen, any time I've heard him use "We" or "Us", he has been speaking about English football as an entity rather than the England team - which I can take. He's been involved in English football for so long, it is probably now second nature to him.

We Scots now have a problem for Sunday - given that Howard Webb has got the final. The entire commentary on whichever part of the English media we are tuned to will be about "our" referee.

Webb and his assistants have had a good tournament and probably deserve the honour: but what will the commentators do if (heaven forfend) he drops a major one?

[scottish]

Yes, Lawrenson, McCarthy & Townsend are only following their own team. But it would be interesting to see what happens should England play the ROI. I think it's the Irish who have been cheated here, being told these guys were desperate to play for the land of their fathers (or in Tony Cascarino's case, not even the land of his great-granny times infinity) only to find their affinity ended with their international careers.

On the 'we' 'us' business: from a personal perspective I spent over 30 years in England ( I can go one better than Hansen, I actually married TWO English women though not, I hasten to add, at the same time) and I'd never use those words when referring to the England team in football or rugby union or any other sport in which Scotland competes as an opponent.

Similarly, where a British team or individual is taking part I have absolutely no problem in backing them/him/her and I do not understand those Scots who don't. It's not a political thing. Or at least it shouldn't be. I can guarantee that many of those Catalans dancing in the streets last night will be out on a big demonstration this Saturday under the banner 'Catalunya is a nation.' On Sunday they'll be cheering on Spain. Much like Rangers supporters would belt out GSTQ at Hampden in the Scottish Cup Final one Saturday and roundly boo it when England played Scotland seven days later.

I've used the dreaded words in cricket, certainly, talking about whether 'we' can win/retain the Ashes for example. The England captain when I first moved south was actually Mike Denness. Between 1972-1977 and apart from a brief interlude when Ray Illingworth was recalled, the Test captaincy was held by Tony Lewis (Welsh), Denness (Scottish) and Tony Greig (South African).

In football, yes, I've talked and written about 'our' game though that has referred to British football as a whole. I've been meticulous - or tried to be - when responding to queries about British records to include Wales and Northern Ireland where information has been available. Again, this is not a statement on Northern Ireland's political status but a recognition of the legal position. I deliberately avoid terms like 'Ulster' or 'Six Counties' which denote obvious partisanship.

I'll freely admit to using the 'we' and 'us' words frequently with regard to Middlesbrough FC. Most Scots, even those who've never set foot over the border, have an English side they follow. I lived in Middlesbrough for 18 years and having been born and brought up under the ethos of following the local team it seemed perfectly natural to watch and support the Boro. Having players like Bobby Murdoch & Graeme Souness amongst others wasn't exactly a hindrance either.

One final point: some of those gin-drinking Telegraph buffers reading the column Snuff mentions (and I agree the Telegraph has always had excellent sports coverage, as well as the easiest crossword of any of the broadsheets) who normally froth at the mouth at the very mention of the word 'Europe' will be throwing about words like 'us,' 'we' and 'ours' repetitively later this year when a team, captained by a Scotsman, with its most recent major winners hailing from both sides of the Irish border and stuffed full of French, Spaniards, Germans & Swedes, plays on Welsh territory in the Ryder Cup.

As Barry Norman was wont to say: "And why not?"