24/2/1872 England,28/5/1929 Norway,24/5/1959 Jutland Teams?

Scottish Football Answers to Questions

24/2/1872 England,28/5/1929 Norway,24/5/1959 Jutland Teams?

Postby Sat31March1928 » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:44 am

I've managed to find all the teams for the 'unofficial' Scotland games from answers on here or the SDA.

There's 3 'missing' teams

24/2/1872 England A F 0-1
SDA incomplete line up

28/5/1929 Norway A F 4-0
SDA has goal scorers only.

24/5/1959 Jutland A F 3-3

Thanks in advance.
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Postby Scottish » Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:09 pm

24/2/1872 at Kennington Oval - lost 1-0
CEB Nepean (Oxford Univ), EHM Elliott (Harrow Chequers), W Lindsay (Civil Service), M Muir-Mackenzie (Old Carthusians, capt), REW Crawford (Harrow Chequers), HS Ferguson (Royal Artillery), HE Mitchell (Royal Engineers), FH Crawford (Harrow Chequers), EV Ravenshaw (Charterhouse School), EH Stewart (Wanderers), CM Thompson (Cambridge Univ)

28/5/29 at the Ullevalaal, Oslo - won 4-0 (Rankin 2, Fleming, Nisbet) Att: 8,000
A McLaren (St Johnstone), D Gray (Rangers), J Crapnell (Airdrieonians), H Morton (Kilmarnock), A Craig (Motherwell), T Craig (Rangers), J Nisbet (Ayr United), A Cheyne (Aberdeen), J Fleming (Rangers), R Rankin (St Mirren), R Howe (Hamilton Accies)

24/5/59 at Aarhus - drew 3-3 (Law, Kerr, Auld) Att: 6,000
R Slater (Falkirk), D MacKay (Celtic), D Baird, G Smith (both Partick), J McGuigan (St Mirren), W Stevenson, A Scott (both Rangers), J White (Falkirk), A Kerr (Kilmarnock), D Law (Huddersfield), R Auld (Celtic)
Last edited by Scottish on Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby stuthejag » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:19 pm

24/5/59 at Aarhus - drew 3-3 (Law, Kerr, Auld) Att: 6,000
R Slater (Falkirk), D MacKay (Celtic), S Baird, E Smith (both Partick), J McGuigan (St Mirren), W Stevenson, A Scott (both Rangers), J White (Falkirk), A Kerr (Kilmarnock), D Law (Huddersfield), R Auld (Celtic)


The 2 Thistle players I think should be Dougie Baird & George Smith.
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Postby Scottish » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:42 pm

stuthejag wrote:24/5/59 at Aarhus - drew 3-3 (Law, Kerr, Auld) Att: 6,000
R Slater (Falkirk), D MacKay (Celtic), S Baird, E Smith (both Partick), J McGuigan (St Mirren), W Stevenson, A Scott (both Rangers), J White (Falkirk), A Kerr (Kilmarnock), D Law (Huddersfield), R Auld (Celtic)


The 2 Thistle players I think should be Dougie Baird & George Smith.


Absolutely right. My mistake. I have now amended. Thanks
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Postby Sat31March1928 » Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:59 pm

I'm taking

J McGuigan to be Jackie McGUGAN

see

http://www.neilbrown.newcastlefans.com/ ... cgugan.htm

'John Hannah (Jacky) McGugan' according to Lister.

rather than

John McGUIGAN

http://www.neilbrown.newcastlefans.com/ ... guigan.htm
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Postby Scottish » Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:52 pm

Jackie McGuigan, yes. I see he's named as McGugan on Litster. I always thought his name was McGuigan but its possible that's the wrong spelling even though it was used during his career. Certainly contemporary publications and resports give the name as McGuigan with an i. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened.
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Postby Sat31March1928 » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:27 pm

More on names from the 5 'early' England Scotland games

There are

19/11/1870 England A F 0-1 H Primrose Civil Service
25/2/1871 England A F 1-1 CB Primrose Civil Service

5/3/1870 England A F 1-1 K Muir-MacKenzie Old Carthusians
24/2/1872 England A F 0-1 M Muir-Mackenzie Old Carthusians

I'm assuming the same people and using the first version of their names.
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Postby Scottish » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:17 pm

I don't know enough about them. I suppose there is a possibility they might be brothers.
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Postby ScottishFA » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:15 pm

From what I can see, the Primrose and Muir-Mackenzie players were different people, possibly brothers.

The only one I can identify for sure is K Muir-Mackenzie, full name Kenneth Augustus Muir-Mackenzie (later Sir Kenneth). Born 29 June 1845, died 22 May 1930. Details courtesy of the Cricket Who's Who, as he played a game for the MCC.

And Charterhouse (whose old boys are the Old Carthusians) list an M Muir-Mackenzie in their team of 1865.

Douglas Lamming, in his English international who's who, lists the full teams in all five pre-official England-Scotland matches, and gives the Primrose initials as HW Primrose in 1870 and CE Primrose in 1871.

I will see if I can find any more references.
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Postby Sat31March1928 » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:36 pm

Cheers

I'll update to show them as different people.

I'm currently working on merging all these details with the Football League teams to come up with a list of everyone who played at the 'highest' level for Scotland.

League Caps were added to 'Full' caps at Bobby Walker's time.

See images below

Image

Image
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Postby Scottish » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:45 pm

ScottishFA wrote:Douglas Lamming, in his English international who's who, lists the full teams in all five pre-official England-Scotland matches, and gives the Primrose initials as HW Primrose in 1870 and CE Primrose in 1871.


As does Keith Warsop in his book on 'special and intermediate' internationals.
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Postby ScottishFA » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:49 pm

And just to confirm the other Muir-Mackenzie was a different person, his full name was Montague Johnstone Muir-Mackenzie, born 1847.
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Postby LEATHERSTOCKING » Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:07 pm

The H.S.Ferguson of the Royal Artillery who played for Scotland in November 1871 & February 1872 was chosen by Robert Gardner (the Queen`s Park captain & Scottish side`s selector) to play in the March 1873 game @ Kennington Oval but withdrew and James Smith a Queen`s Park member then living in London & turning out for South Norwood took his place thus denying Ferguson an "offical cap". I have tried without luck in getting ANY information on Ferguson even through military sources other than that he was at the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich in 1871 & 1872.

Keith Worsop ("THE EARLY F.A.CUP FINALS") quotes from WHO`S WHO on Quintin Hogg who played in both 1871 games for Scotland, "Captained the first seven Scotch teams against England 1864-70." Is there someone in London who could confirm from local newspapers whether there were indeed "Internationals" played there at that time or was Hogg spinning a line? He certainly wasn`t even in the two "Scotland" sides of 1870 let alone being their captain.
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Postby ScottishFA » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:23 pm

LEATHERSTOCKING wrote:I have tried without luck in getting ANY information on Ferguson even through military sources other than that he was at the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich in 1871 & 1872.


Here is a brief biography from 'Fifty Years of Sport' (1922), a very heavy volume which covered the 'great public schools' ie Eton, Harrow and Winchester.

Ferguson, Captain Harold Stuart. Born 1851. Eton 1861-1867. Played cricket in XXII. Joined Royal Artillery. Abroad in India, and played cricket for Madras and Bengal. Mr Ferguson also enjoyed some bison shooting and riding. Returned to England 1905. Secretary to Lord Roberts for ten years. F.L.S., F.Z.S. Died 1921.

Wow! A Scotland international who enjoyed bison shooting!
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Postby LEATHERSTOCKING » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:24 am

Thanks for that. Does your source give a place of birth? Give me a clue, what`s F.L.S & F.L.Z.? Old joke - what`s the difference between a buffalo & a bison? You can`t wash your hands in a buffalo.
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