Willie McCartney's career

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Carlucci
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Willie McCartney's career

Post by Carlucci » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:57 pm

Could you give us some data about Willie McCartney's career, both as foootball player and as a coach? Is he the only man who has become Hearts & Hibs manager ? Thanks

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Post by Sat31March1928 » Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:07 am

Willie Ormond managed them both as well. Wikipedia has a fairly good set of biographies of both Hearts and Hibs managers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Ormond

James McGhee, Hibs most prolific Derby goal scorer with at least 24 goals including 5 in the first 25 minutes of one match managed Hearts in 1908.

see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_McGhee
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

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Post by Scottish » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:49 pm

What was unusual about Willie McCartney when he took over as Hearts manager in 1919 was that he succeeded his father John. I'm not sure if this is the only occasion when a son has taken over as manager directly from his father but it can't have happened often.

He resigned from Hearts in the close season of 1935. Despite his long tenure at Tynecastle he never managed to take Hearts higher than third in the league or past the semi-finals of the Scottish Cup.

He took over at Hibs in 1936 and was manager during the war period when the Easter Road club enjoyed a good measure of success. He was also responsible for signing many of the great Hibs player of the immediate post-war period.

He was still in charge when Hibs reached the 1947 Scottish Cup Final which they lost to Aberdeen. He was replaced by Hugh Shaw during the 1947-48 season which ended with Hibs winning the championship for the first time since 1903.

Willie McCartney was rewarded with a testimonial match against Manchester United on September 22nd 1948.

Regarding his playing career I don't have details I'm afraid. There was a Bill McCartney who played for Rutherglen Glencairn, Ayr FC, Hibernian, Manchester United, West Ham United, Broxburn, Lochgelly United and Clyde (also capped by Scotland) whose playing career was circa 1899-1913 but I don't know if this was the same player or not.

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Post by bobby s » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:45 am

Dave,

I'v researched this before and I'm pretty certain that the Willie McCartney player was not the Willie McCartney manager.

He died during season 1947-1948 [around December 47 IIRC], and this is why Shaw took over. I'll update this when I've got my books in front of me.
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Post by Scottish » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:01 pm

Thanks, Bobby. I thought McCartney had died in situ but can't find a reference to ti anywhere. Presumably the 'testimonial' in September 1948 was actually a memorial match?

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:36 pm

scottish wrote:What was unusual about Willie McCartney when he took over as Hearts manager in 1919 was that he succeeded his father John. I'm not sure if this is the only occasion when a son has taken over as manager directly from his father but it can't have happened often.
Jimmy McKinnell Jnr took over from his father Jimmy McKinnell Snr as Secretary / Manager at Queen of the South somewhere around the second world war. I can get an exact date later.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:18 pm

Sat31March1928 wrote:Willie Ormond managed them both as well.
Didn't Willie McCartney's father John also manage both Hearts and Hibs?

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Post by Scottish » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:18 pm

Quite amazing just how long-served managers were in the pre-war era. Of course the job wasn’t the same as it is nowadays. Most of them were Secretary/Managers and routine admin functions took up a large part of their time. Few had sole control over team selection. Fewer still held power over transfers. But their longevity was incredible by modern standards. For instance Aberdeen’s first three managers served the club for over half a century. Their last three only go back as far as 1999.

It’s difficult to say who was the longest-serving. Willie Maley was Celtic manager from April 1897-January 1940 but Arbroath’s Bob McGlashan could give him a run for his money. McGlashan was Match Secretary at Arbroath from 1903-1946 but only held the title of manager from 1927 even though it seems clear he was carrying out managerial duties from 1903.

Post-war the record holder is Jim McLean, in charge at Dundee United from December 1971-May 1993.

I don’t think there’s a complete record of Scottish club managers available anywhere but from my own records these are the men who lasted ten years or more in charge of the same club in one spell. I have left out those whose service came to ten or more years but was in two more spells in charge. This is by no means an exhaustive or comprehensive list so please feel free to add or amend.

Aberdeen
Jimmy Philip 1903-1924 cs
Pat Travers cs 1924-Nov 1937
Dave Halliday Jan 1938 - 1955 cs

Albion Rovers
Willie Reid cs 1920-cs 1931
Webber Lees 1937-Jul 1949

(Lees was in charge twice. I’ve seen a Wiki article claiming his first spell started in 1929 but I have it as 1931-35)

Arbroath
Bob McGlashan cs 1927-Feb 1946
Albert Henderson Sep1962 - Jan 1980

Celtic
Willie Maley Apr 1897-Jan 1940
Jimmy McGrory Aug 1945-Mar 1965
Jock Stein Mar 1965-May 1978

Clyde
Pat Travers Nov 1937 -??? (definitely still there in 1955 and gone by 1958)

Cowdenbeath
Sandy Paterson 1906-1924cs

Dundee
George Anderson 1944 – 1954

Dundee United
Jerry Kerr June 1959 – December 1971
Jim McLean December 1971 May 1993

East Fife
David McLean 1911-1929
David McLean (2nd spell) 1931-1941 cs

Falkirk
‘Tully’ Craig Apr 1935 – 1950 cs

Hamilton Accies
Willie McAndrew 1925-1946

Hearts
Willie McCartney October 1919-June 1935
Tommy Walker February 1951- September 1966

Hibernian
Dan McMichael 1903-1919
Bobby Templeton 1925-1936
Willie McCartney April 1936-January 1948
Hugh Shaw January 1948- November 1961

Kilmarnock
Hugh Spence cs 1919- December 1937

Montrose
Norman Christie 1959-1969

Morton
Bob Cochrane 1908-1927
Jimmy Davies 1939-1955
Hal Stewart 1961-1972
Allan McGraw 1985-1997

Motherwell
John ‘Sailor’ Hunter April 1911-1946 cs
Bobby Ancell cs 1955-1965 cs
Tommy McLean cs 1984 – 1994 cs

Partick Thistle
George Easton 1903-1929
Donald Turner April 1929- cs1947
Davie Meiklejohn June 1947 – August 1959


Queen of the South
Jimmy McKinnell Jr 1946-1961

Raith Rovers
Bert Herdman 1945-1961

Rangers
William Wilton May 1899-May 1920
Bill Struth May 1920 – 1954 cs
Scot Symon June 1954-November 1967

St Johnstone
David Rutherford April 1936-April 1947

St Mirren
Johnny Cochran cs 1916 – April 1928

Stirling Albion
Alex Smith September 1974- December 1986
Last edited by Scottish on Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:23 pm

bobby s wrote:He died during season 1947-1948 [around December 47 IIRC], and this is why Shaw took over. I'll update this when I've got my books in front of me.
Bobby, see my post on long-serving managers. I have it as January 1948 but I can't find a specific reference

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Post by Scottish » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:24 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote:
scottish wrote:What was unusual about Willie McCartney when he took over as Hearts manager in 1919 was that he succeeded his father John. I'm not sure if this is the only occasion when a son has taken over as manager directly from his father but it can't have happened often.
Jimmy McKinnell Jnr took over from his father Jimmy McKinnell Snr as Secretary / Manager at Queen of the South somewhere around the second world war. I can get an exact date later.
SD, see my post on long-serving managers. I have it as 1947. I also have Jimmy McKinnell Sr as close season 1938-1946 but no one else between father and son.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:34 pm

scottish wrote:
Skyline Drifter wrote:
scottish wrote:What was unusual about Willie McCartney when he took over as Hearts manager in 1919 was that he succeeded his father John. I'm not sure if this is the only occasion when a son has taken over as manager directly from his father but it can't have happened often.
Jimmy McKinnell Jnr took over from his father Jimmy McKinnell Snr as Secretary / Manager at Queen of the South somewhere around the second world war. I can get an exact date later.
SD, see my post on long-serving managers. I have it as 1947. I also have Jimmy McKinnell Sr as close season 1938-1946 but no one else between father and son.
My own notes say McKinnell Senior was 1938 - 1946 and McKinnell Jnr 1946 - 1961.

I'll revert to the club history books in a minute.


EDITED:

Checking the most comprehensive of the club histories reveals at the end of the 1945/46 season:
"With the season having just been completed, Mr Jimmy McKinnell tendered his resignation, much to the surprise and regret of the directors. In view of his explanation that he "desired to take things easier", the directors could not do otherwise but to accede to his request, although they did so with great reluctance.

They did not have to look very far for a replacement, appointing the wee man's son, Jimmy jnr, who was thoroughly conversant with all the duties and requirements of the position and it was felt that he would be a worthy successor to his father and would fully maintain the McKinnell tradition. Jimmy senior agreed to act as an assistant to his son"

and, at the end of the 1960/61 season:
"The close season saw George Farm installed as player manager, Jimmy McKinnell relinquishing the position in favour of the former Scottish internationalist."

McKinnell Junior was thus summer of 1946 to summer of 1961 so more or less exactly 15 years in the post. Certainly 15 seasons in charge.

It is an interesting point of note (well it interests me!) that apart from the two McKinnell's at 15 seasons and 8 seasons respectively, who were both primarily administrative positions anyway, our longest serving manager is John Connolly who did 4 years from April 2000 to April 2004. The managers chair at Palmerston has never been one occupied for long since McKinnell junior stepped down.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:13 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote: McKinnell Junior was thus summer of 1946 to summer of 1961 so more or less exactly 15 years in the post. Certainly 15 seasons in charge.
I've amended the above post to reflect what you say. A few queries though. I have Farm as joining as player-manager in February 1960. Are you saying he was a player only until the 1961 close season? I also have Jimmy McKinnell Sr listed for 1934 with a note saying he was possibly secretary only and George McLachlan cs 1935 - 1937 then Willie Ferguson March 1937 - 1938 cs before McKinnell Sr as manager

I also have Joe Dodds as player/coach 1921-23 when QoS were not in the league and then a note saying there was no manager before him or after him until Alec Wright May 1928 - 1931 cs.

I have no managers between Wright and McLachlan other than the McKinnell 1934 note.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:14 pm

Longest-serving post-war league managers – single continuous spell only. Where I am not sure the information is correct I have marked with an asterisk

Aberdeen – Dave Halliday 1946- 1955 cs (in post since January 1938)

Airdrieonians – Alex McDonald cs 1991 – August 1998

Albion Rovers – Jackie Hutton 1953-1961

Alloa Athletic – Archie McPherson (no, not THAT one) August 1959 – 1969 cs

Arbroath – Albert Henderson September 1962- January 1980

Ayr United – Ally McLeod May 1966- November 1975

Berwick Rangers – Paul Smith October 1997-October 2004

Brechin City* – Dick Campbell cs 2000 – January 2005

Celtic – Jimmy McGrory 1946 – March 1965 (in post since August 1945)

Clyde – Pat Travers 1946 – 1955 at least, possibly 1956 or 1957 (in post since November 1937)

Cowdenbeath – Andy Matthew 1968-1974

Dumbarton – Peter McGowan cs 1954 – 1959 cs

Dundee – George Anderson 1946-1954 (in post since 1944)

Dundee United – Jim McLean December 1971- May 1993

Dunfermline – Jim Leishman October 1983- July 1990

East Fife – Dave Clarke January 1978- February 1987

East Stirlingshire* – Billy Lamont 1977-1981 cs

Elgin City – David Robertson March 2003- December 2005

Falkirk* – not at all sure here. I know Bob Shankly left Falkirk for Third Lanark in January 1957 but don’t know when he took over at Brockville. If not him then Alex Totten December 1996 – 2002 cs

Forfar Athletic* - Ian McPhee cs 1996 – November 2000

Gretna – Rowan Alexander cs 2002 – March 2007

Hamilton Academical – Andy Paton April 1959 – 1968 cs

Hearts – Tommy Walker February 1951 – September 1966

Hibernian – Hugh Shaw January 1948 – November 1961

Inverness CT – Steve Paterson cs 1995 – December 2002

Kilmarnock – Willie Waddell – cs 1957 – 1965 cs

Livingston* - David Hay/Jim Leishman March 2000 – 2003 cs (surely Terry Christie was in charge for longer when they were Meadowbank?)

Montrose – Norman Christie 1959-1969

Morton – Allan McGraw 1985-1997

Motherwell* - either Bobby Ancell cs 1955-1965 cs or Tommy McLean cs 1984- 1994 cs

Partick Thistle – Davie Meiklejohn June 1947- August 1959

Peterhead – Ian Wilson June 2000 – December 2003

Queen of the South – Jimmy McKinell Jr 1946-1961

Queen’s Park – okay, as Forrest Robertson keeps reminding me, they don’t have anything so common as a manger but the longest-serving coach is Eddie Hunter cs 1979 – December 1994

Raith Rovers – Bert Herdman 1946-1961 (in post since 1945)

Rangers – Scot Symon June 1954- November 1967

Ross County – Neale Cooper cs 1996 – November 2002

St Johnstone – Bobby Brown June 1958 – February 1967

St Mirren – Bobby Rankin 1946-August 1954 (in post since 1945)

Stenhousemuir* - Alex Smith cs 1969-September 1974. Any advance on that? Jim Meakin? Terry Christie? Dennis Lawson?

Stirling Albion – Alex Smith September 1974 – December 1986

Stranraer* - Surely Sanny McAnespie but I don’t have his dates

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Post by the hibLOG » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:06 pm

Going back to Willie McCartney, John Mackay's book has separate index entries for W. McCartney (player) and W. McCartney (manager) and draws no link between the two, so as Bobby says I think they are clearly not the same person although their dates would be consistent.

As David has it in his list McCartney the manager died in January 1948. The September 1948 game against FA Cup holders Manchester United was indeed the McCartney Memorial Match. Hibs lost 0-1 in front of 35,000 according to Mackay.

Also, it's funny how I could have sworn Alex Miller was manager for more than ten years. Certainly felt like it... :(
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Post by Skyline Drifter » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:22 pm

scottish wrote:
Skyline Drifter wrote: McKinnell Junior was thus summer of 1946 to summer of 1961 so more or less exactly 15 years in the post. Certainly 15 seasons in charge.
I've amended the above post to reflect what you say. A few queries though. I have Farm as joining as player-manager in February 1960. Are you saying he was a player only until the 1961 close season? I also have Jimmy McKinnell Sr listed for 1934 with a note saying he was possibly secretary only and George McLachlan cs 1935 - 1937 then Willie Ferguson March 1937 - 1938 cs before McKinnell Sr as manager

I also have Joe Dodds as player/coach 1921-23 when QoS were not in the league and then a note saying there was no manager before him or after him until Alec Wright May 1928 - 1931 cs.

I have no managers between Wright and McLachlan other than the McKinnell 1934 note.
Queen of the South FC - Managers All Time

1919 - 1921: Committee
1922 - 1923: Joe Dodds (Player / Coach)
1924 - 1927: Board of Directors
1 Jun 1928 - 31 Jul 1931: Alec Wright (Player / Secretary / Manager)
1 Aug 1931 - 29 Jun 1935: Board of Directors / Jimmy McKinnell Snr
29 Jun 1935 - 22 Mar 1937: George McLachlan
27 Mar 1937 - 2 Jul 1938: Willie Ferguson
2 Jul 1938 - April 1946: Jimmy McKinnell Senior (Secretary / Manager)
April 1946 - Summer 1961: Jimmy McKinnell Junior (Secretary / Manager)
Summer 1961 - 28 Jan 1964: George Farm (Player / Manager)
28 Jan 1964 - April 1965: Board of Directors
Aug 1965 - 31 May 1966: Bobby Shearer (Player / Coach)
31 May 1966 - 4 May 1968: Jackie Husband
1968 - 1970: Board of Directors
Summer 1970 - Dec 1970: Harold Davis
Mid May 1971 - Mar 1973: Jim Easton (Player / Coach)
Mar 1973 - Late Sep 1974: Willie McLean
Summer 1975 - 24 May 1978: Mike Jackson (Jackson had been coach under the Board since McLean's departure)
12 Jul 1978 - 23 Nov 1978: Willie Hunter
23 Nov 1978 - May 1979: Board of Directors (Harry Hood took training)
Late Jun 1979 - 15 Apr 1980: Billy Little
May 1980 - Late Dec 1980: George Herd
Late Dec 1980 - 27 Feb 1982: Board of Directors
27 Feb 1982 - 17 Apr 1982: Harry Hood
June 1982 - 12 May 1984: Drew Busby (Player / Manager)
June 1984 - 1st Week Aug 1986: Nobby Clark
1st Week Aug 1986 - 28 Apr 1987: Mike Jackson
Mid Jun 1987 - 26 Nov 1988: Davie Wilson
3 Dec 1988 - 3 May 1989: Tommy McGinn (Caretaker Manager, never formally appointed)
May 1989 - 14 Apr 1990: Billy McLaren
6 Jul 1990 - 6 Mar 1991: Frank McGarvey (Player / Manager)
Late Jun 1991 - 8 May 1992: Ally McLeod
May 1992 - Mar 1993: Derek Frye (Player / Coach - The Board picked the team)
27 Mar 1993 - 7 Jan 1996: Billy McLaren
Before 10 Jan 1996 - May 1998: Rowan Alexander & Mark Shanks (Co-managers, Alexander was also a Player)
May 1998 - 13 Jan 1999: Rowan Alexander (Player / Manager)
13 Jan 1999 - 6 May 2000: George Rowe & Ken Eadie (Co-Player / Managers)
26 Apr 2000 - 3 May 2004: John Connolly
10 May 2004 - 31st Oct 2005: Iain Scott
31 Oct 2005 - 10 Nov 2005: Stuart Lovell (Caretaker Player Manager)
10 Nov 2005 - 28 Apr 2007: Ian McCall
7 May 2007 - Present: Gordon Chisholm


One of the books I have lists Joe Dodd as Player / Coach for the period you have him for but in none of them is the text on him especially clear. Before we entered the league he was apparently on "loan" from Celtic as he had fallen out with them but after we came into the third division we negotiated a fee to sign him properly. Presumably he continued to coach but I very much doubt he selected the team.

George Farm was definitely a player only for a period from whenever he joined up until the close season in 1961 when Jimmy McKinnell stepped down. Having relinquished the title Manager for the last time in 1961, Jimmy McKinnell continued to serve as Secretary until the end of the 1967/68 season.

The discrepancy in 2000 is deliberate. John Connolly was appointed as the manager for the following season on 26th April 2000 but did not take control of team affairs until after the final match of the season on 6th May 2000. Until then George Rowe and Ken Eadie remained in charge until their contracts as managers expired. There was an effective overlap.

Rowan Alexander and Mark Shanks were appointed somewhere between McLaren's sacking on Sunday 7th January 1996 and the next match on Wednesday 10th January. They were technically appointed as co-managers but Alexander was always perceived as the more senior in team matters whilst Shanks was mainly coaching skillseekers. I don't believe there was any firm point at which they ceased to be partners but Shanks left the club to do his own self employed coaching at the end of the 97/98 season though he did continue to train some of our players as deemed necessary the following season.
Last edited by Skyline Drifter on Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:44 am, edited 5 times in total.

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