FA Cup in the raw.

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Scottish » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:24 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote: Dumbarton are not erecting temporary stands, they say that it's not feasible under planning regulations in a residential area or something. Not sure of the detail but they ruled it out in the summer.
"Residential area?" That must mean they wouldn't be able to build permanent stands either. Without a change of designation they'll be stuck with their present arrangement forever.
Skyline Drifter wrote: Apologies, I wasn't conscious there are no fixtures scheduled for the Premiership on Q-F weekend, but my point stands in that if a Premiership club do not have a game that weekend it's because they've already been knocked out of the cup, not because they had no opportunity to have a game at that weekend. It's not exactly the same scenario as the four Championship clubs at round 3.
No, it's not the same. My point is that the Championship clubs and the league know in May, long before fixture compilation, which clubs have a free weekend. The Premiership clubs don't know until a few weeks beforehand (or for that matter, how many will be inactive.
Skyline Drifter wrote: Other fixtures? You seem to have moved your point from that "the clubs have had nearly six months to arrange another fixture if you wanted to" to the League fixture list coming up with some alternative which is a somewhat different point I would agree with. It should be feasible to have those four clubs meet each other in League action on 3rd Round date and leave the other six to play against one another in midweek games instead of having a full midweek fixture list scheduled for April. I think HJ already made this point earlier in the thread.
I don't think I was moving my point, which is the amount of time clubs are aware of the situation. I agree the four league clubs meeting each other on the Saturday is the best "solution" and cannot for the life of me see why this can't be done. As I said, Sutcliffe could do this on his own with pencil and paper a century ago.

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Scottish » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:35 pm

I'd be loath to see the Juniors disappear from the cup as they have brought a lot to it in recent years but it might be an idea to bring them in at the lowest entry level if they remain outside the pyramid. That would strengthen the pyramid by admitting the best teams there at the highest possible level and encourage juniors to sign up.

WRT to Stirling University, I thought they played their matches at Forthbank? In which case there's no need for a licence provided ground-sharing is permitted. And if it isn't then East Stirlingshire would have big problems if drawn at home.

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Skyline Drifter » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:37 pm

scottish wrote:Yes, Alloa was under 3,000 and I am aware of the Dumbarton capacity. In the past two seasons clubs have erected temporary stands to meet demand for Rangers tickets. I'm not sure if Dumbarton are planning the same but would be surprised if they weren't.
For what it's worth I had a quick skirt around and it looks like Rangers are getting circa 3,000 tickets for the rearranged game at Cowdenbeath on Tuesday 4th November. They have sold all they got whatever it was. This does not of course necessarily mean they'll all show up as some are on the Continuous Credit Card Scheme but Cowdenbeath will get the income regardless.

As I suggested it doesn't appear they'll be enormously financially handicapped by the move though I accept the occasion is lessened for them and their chances of a point or points are reduced.

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Skyline Drifter » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:40 pm

scottish wrote:
Skyline Drifter wrote: Dumbarton are not erecting temporary stands, they say that it's not feasible under planning regulations in a residential area or something. Not sure of the detail but they ruled it out in the summer.
"Residential area?" That must mean they wouldn't be able to build permanent stands either. Without a change of designation they'll be stuck with their present arrangement forever.
Indeed it does. Hence why they announced plans to move to a new stadium outside town recently.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/foo ... m.25349296

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:45 pm

There are several strands of licensing of which the ground is only one. It's all detailed at the link below.

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football_do ... ?page=2570

In addition to that licensing is being used for a number of different purposes - as ground criteria for Professional Game leagues; as SFA membership specifications; and as eligibility criteria for the Scottish Cup (if SFA get their way).

Clubs currently in HL & LL have to obtain a licence by next summer. As you say, Stirling should already have the ground aspect ticked by merit of the groundshare, and the new stadium at Edinburgh University has been built with licensing in mind: the Border Telegraph says they only have to complete paperwork to obtain their licenses... Cove are well-run but hamstrung by the cramped pitch and facilities at Allan Park so their problem is the opposite: the P&J says they intend to ground-share if their new stadium isn't ready in time... Vale of Leithen lack a rail around the pitch, disabled access and a disabled toilet, and signage: the local press says they'll need to find £8,000 to finish those works. Clubs need an Entry license for HL & LL; an Entry with Bronze floodlights for SPFL1 & SPFL2; and, IIRC, a Bronze with Silver floodlights above that.

Licensing is also the standard asked of new clubs wanting SFA membership. It replaced previous seperate criteria which were tougher.

And SFA wants to standardise cup entry to licensed clubs only, originally targeting "in 2016". However they tried for 2015, i.e. next season, at this year's AGM; but it failed to obtain the necessary majority. This could affect unlicensed members, and/or qualifiers.

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Scottish » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:14 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote: Indeed it does. Hence why they announced plans to move to a new stadium outside town recently.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/foo ... m.25349296
An incredible state of affairs considering their present ground dates back only to November 2000 and with a considerable amount of investment behind it.

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Skyline Drifter » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:56 am

Skyline Drifter wrote:
scottish wrote:Without go inn into it all, Alloa couldn't have known at the start of the season they would be playing in the semi-finals whereas Cowdenbeath expected a league game. Better fixture programming which allotted home games to Rangers on cup tie weekends would have prevented this. We'll see what happens when Cowdenbeath do play Rangers but I'd be surprised (and happy to be wrong) if it isn't Rangers' lowest away league gate of the season.
It will not be their lowest away league gate of the season. The low capacities at Alloa and Dumbarton will see to that. They've already played in front of 2,973 at Alloa and Dumbarton's capacity is only 2,020. With Cowdenbeath having a capacity of 4,370 I'd imagine there will still be enough midweek interest in the game to just about fill it, though I may be wrong.
The crowd at Dumbarton v Rangers on Saturday was officially 1,850, a slightly surprising 170 short of capacity but I presume that was mostly lost to segregation (which appears not to have been very well achieved anyway with a lot of complaints from Dumbarton fans about their end being inundated with Rangers fans).

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Scottish » Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:07 pm

Yes, it would appear that either that match or their second visit will produce lower crowds than a trip to Central Park. Segregation is still a big problem wherever Rangers play and a lot of it is down to the home clubs who appear to be happy to take the Rangers shilling and turn a blind eye to away fans finding their way into the areas reserved for home supporters. At the final match of the 2010-11 season there was an attendance of 16,563 for Kilmarnock v Rangers. It should have been no more than 15,000 max, even with the allocation of three stands to Rangers fans that day (title-winning, Walter Smith's last game in charge, very important obviously).

The one remaining stand for beleaguered home fans (the Frank Beattie) contained a very large number of Rangers fans. When my cousin and I pointed this out to the stewards, they were not inclined to do anything about it. Unsurprising perhaps as I recognised one of the stewards and admired his restraint at not cheering any of the five goals scored by the team he follows in midweek when he has no stewarding duties to perform.

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by HibeeJibee » Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:54 pm

On the first occasion Rangers visited Berwick in SFL3, the club enforced a policy of not allowing people wearing Rangers colours into the home area - and I believe a couple of Rangers fans who got in were ejected... However, come the second match of the season, and this had been abandoned for some reason. People wearing Rangers scarfs and hats, even someone carrying a Rangers flag I think, were openly allowed into the home section. Some of them then took it among themselves to actively support their team - to the annoyance of the home support, quite understandly - and even directed some abuse at the Berwick fans when we were reacting to a ref's decision, bad tackle from a Rangers player, etc. etc.

Some of us eventually had enough, so I approached a steward at HT. I was basically told get lost and go away, they'd no intention of acting.

When I asked him if I'd have been allowed into the Rangers sections as a Berwick supporter he answered "of course not"...!!

I've seen similar stories from time-to-time with other SFL3 or SPFL2 clubs. Understandably they don't want anything to kickoff should they try to remove people; but by the same token, leaving the rogue fans 'unfetterred' risks them get bolder and then something kickingoff between the fans. There's also the simple element of fairness, and of making it a safe atmosphere for the elderly, women, children - it's not fair allowing them in the wrong section while it creates an uncomfortable, edgy feeling around them.

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Scottish » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:50 am

HibeeJibee wrote: I've seen similar stories from time-to-time with other SFL3 or SPFL2 clubs.
It's at every level, worst when one or other of the OF can clinch a title when visiting. It guarantees a big payday for the home club but in segregation has existed in Scottish football for nearly forty years so it shouldn't be difficult even at smaller grounds to do something effective. Obviously clubs will want to maximise income and I for one have no objections to handing over the majority of a ground to the OF with two provisos: first, there must be some recompense for season ticket holders moved from their usual seats (even if there is a clause allowing for removal in the event of a "big" occasion) and secondly that the area reserved for home fans must be exactly that - for home fans only. Any steward refusing to carry out their duties should be reported to their management and to club officials and informed in no uncertain terms that they are not carrying out their terms of employment. Should a steward or stewards feel uncomfortable or unable to deal with supporters in a part of the ground where they shouldn't be then what are clubs paying the people in the blue uniforms dotted around the ground to do?

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Skyline Drifter » Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:45 am

Skyline Drifter wrote:
Skyline Drifter wrote:
scottish wrote:Without go inn into it all, Alloa couldn't have known at the start of the season they would be playing in the semi-finals whereas Cowdenbeath expected a league game. Better fixture programming which allotted home games to Rangers on cup tie weekends would have prevented this. We'll see what happens when Cowdenbeath do play Rangers but I'd be surprised (and happy to be wrong) if it isn't Rangers' lowest away league gate of the season.
It will not be their lowest away league gate of the season. The low capacities at Alloa and Dumbarton will see to that. They've already played in front of 2,973 at Alloa and Dumbarton's capacity is only 2,020. With Cowdenbeath having a capacity of 4,370 I'd imagine there will still be enough midweek interest in the game to just about fill it, though I may be wrong.
The crowd at Dumbarton v Rangers on Saturday was officially 1,850, a slightly surprising 170 short of capacity but I presume that was mostly lost to segregation (which appears not to have been very well achieved anyway with a lot of complaints from Dumbarton fans about their end being inundated with Rangers fans).
Further to this, there were less than 100 tickets remaining unsold for Cowdenbeath v Rangers yesterday morning with the Cowden office opening for business yesterday so they may well now be sold out. Whilst that still doesn't guarantee they'll all actually show up it does appear Cowdenbeath have lost nothing financially from the date change.

Dumbarton's Scottish Cup tie crowd v Rangers was 1,878, 28 higher than the League game 7 days earlier but again nearly 150 short of capacity which must be down to unused seating mostly either through segregation of empty directors box seats or something.

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Scottish » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:38 pm

Dumbarton have lost out big time here. When they moved to their current ground it was with the express intention of expanding if and when circumstances permitted. Surely any planning issues would have been dealt with before the construction of the present stadium? I just don't understand this at all. Has something changed in the past fifteen years or were those in charge of Dumbarton at the time of the proposed change of stadium guilty of gross ineptitude?

As an indication of how much they have lost, consider this: Rangers are fast closing in on 2,000 away league matches. All but a handful have a recorded attendance figure of some kind. Their league game at Dumbarton was the lowest ever. During Rangers' sojourn amongst the lower orders the lowest aggregate attendance for two away games in a season is 4,958 from two trips to Annan in 2012-13. Dumbarton are going to fall short of that by a distance.

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Scottish » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:05 pm

Re previous posts about the Scottish Cup on this thread. Today's draw is the best for sides from the lower divisions that I can recall. Ten Premiership sides drawn against each other with the remaining two drawn away to the best two teams in the Championship. One non-Premiership place in the quarter-finals is already guaranteed and with a maximum of seven Premiership teams in the last sixteen I suspect there will be more to come.

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Skyline Drifter » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:50 pm

scottish wrote:Dumbarton have lost out big time here. When they moved to their current ground it was with the express intention of expanding if and when circumstances permitted. Surely any planning issues would have been dealt with before the construction of the present stadium? I just don't understand this at all. Has something changed in the past fifteen years or were those in charge of Dumbarton at the time of the proposed change of stadium guilty of gross ineptitude?
I would guess circumstances have changed in 15 years. Certainly there is now a housing estate with new build houses backing right up to the ground when it was a Bowling Club and disused ground when the stadium was first built there.

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Re: FA Cup in the raw.

Post by Scottish » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:05 am

Well, you were absolutely on the button about Cowdenbeath vis-a-vis Alloa and Dumbarton though I did note that their match v Rangers was a few hundred short of capacity. If they've sold the tickets they won't be bothered I suppose. But in many cases run-of-the-mill games are scheduled to take place on the same night as a Champions League match is on terrestrial TV. Since these dates are known about well in advance, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of clubs & league to play either the night after or before depending on the CL schedule.

A few asides from the Cowden-Rangers game. The crowd of 3,919 was actually over 700 more than when the teams last met in the league in April 1971. That was also a re-arranged midweek match. In fact, surprisingly, it was only Cowdenbeath's seventh best gate (of seventeen) that season.

Last night's 3,919 is the biggest league crowd at Central Park for a league game since New Year's Day 1973 when 5,664 watched Cowden's derby match against Dunfermline. That was 783 home games ago!

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