RSSSF Scotland records - changes

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Gabe
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RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by Gabe » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:16 pm

Bluedragon and I have now added a new list to the RSSSF of unofficial matches played by Scotland to sit alongside the existing details of official matches. We have tried to identify and include only those matches where a Scotland XI was selected by the Scottish Football Association although we have included the five Scotland v England matches played before the SFA was formed. We have so far added team details, goalscorers, etc. for matches against national or representative opposition. We aim to add the details for the other matches, e.g. tour matches, trials, etc. in the next couple of months.

In some matches the SFA involvement in the team is difficult to determine. For example, in Jimmy Mason’s Sunderland v Scotland XI testimonial match in 1953 the newspapers say that Sir George Graham, SFA secretary was involved in setting the match up and we have therefore included that game.

We would be very happy to hear about matches that we may have overlooked or if you disagree with any matches we have included. Here is the link:

http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/scot-unoff-intres.html

In Andy Mitchell’s words we opened a “big can of worms” with the discussion on another thread a month ago about the local government area in which UK grounds were located at the time of matches listed in the RSSSF Official Internationals records were played. We accepted the challenge! Here is a link:

http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/scot-intres.html

The summary list has not yet been changed but the individual record of each match has been amended where necessary. Again, let us know if there are further changes required.

Thank you.

prorege
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Re: RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by prorege » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:24 am

Scotland played a couple of warm-up matches before the 1982 World Cup against lower division Spanish sides.

Unfortunately I cannot locate the details at present but I will have them somewhere.

Photos from one of the games featured on a Facebook site not that long ago.

ScottishFA
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Re: RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by ScottishFA » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:56 am

Here are a few comments and additional matches, which may not meet your criteria:

3.10.1891 the opposition should really be described as Canadian-American XI, as you make clear in the footnotes.

28.5.1929 v Norway - was an East Norwegian select. As you will know the 'official' match on that tour was a West Norwegian select, but the SFA decided to call it a full international anyway. The Norwegians do not.

8.5.1935 v England, Jubilee match at Highbury was Anglo-Scots rather than a Scotland XI.

1935 v Vancouver. The date of the game was 1 June (a Saturday) not 2 June.

Wartime: there were all sorts of Scotland matches of varying official status. I think the following could be included:
24.4.40 Scotland XI 4, Empire Army 1, Tynecastle
28.4.40 Irish XI 2, Scottish XI 3, Dublin (the Scottish team was selected by the Glasgow FA)
5.12.42 Scotland XI 0, RAF 4, Newcastle
25.11.44 Scotland XI 7, RAF 1, Hillsborough

17.11.45 Scotland XI 4, Combined Services 2, Celle
18.11.45 Scotland XI 1, Combined Services 1, Hamburg

19.6.49 US Soccer consider this a full international match.

22.3.76 Great Britain XI 3, Scotland XI 2, Alan Mullery Testimonial at Fulham

19.4.78 game was at Kingsmills in Inverness, not Inverurie
30.5.86 opposition was LA Heat, not Heath!

The match in 2002 doesn't really belong here, being a closed door trial of fringe players. It belongs in the same category as the 19th century trial games and the Anglo-Scots matches.

Gabe
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Re: RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by Gabe » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:15 pm

Thanks very much for the comments.

Prorege – thanks to your lead we have now found most of the details of the two warm-up matches against Torralto, a Portuguese semi-professional club.

ScottishFA – we will amend the two typos you spotted and added in a few notes to reflect your comments. Thank you. Looking at the possible additional matches the only ones we do not intend to include are:

28.4.40 Irish XI 2, Scottish XI 3, Dublin (as you say a Glasgow FA team rather than a SFA one)

22.3.76 Great Britain XI 3, Scotland XI 2, Alan Mullery Testimonial at Fulham (this team does not appear to have had any SFA involvement and was made up of 10 Anglo-Scots and Franco Cordova (Roma).

The overview page of official international matches has now been amended to show the correct location of UK grounds at the time, e.g. Villa Park, Aston, Ibrox Park, Govan, etc.

Aten
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Re: RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by Aten » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:23 pm

Not sure if this counts as an unofficial Scotland match, however, on the 21st March 1891 a Scotland International XI played Corinthians at Hampden Park. Queen's Park were due to play Corinthians in their traditional match but the Queen's Park committee, at a meeting on 18th March 1891, took the unprecedented step of having the Scotland team that was selected to play England on the 4th April 1891 instead. The committee felt that this would benefit the international team, as it would give them a game to get used to each other. Despite the spin this was really about finance. As Queen’s Park were unable to arrange fixtures against league teams there was a lack of “quality" opposition to attract the paying public so gate takings were well down on previous seasons.

The first hurdle to overcome in ensuring a top gate was the fact that Third Lanark were down to play recent Scottish Cup Winners’, Heart of Midlothian at Cathkin Park on the same day; an obvious fixture clash that could affect both games. As Third Lanark and Hearts were also due to face each other on league duty a few weeks later at Tynecastle, Queen’s Park approached Third Lanark and asked them if they could play their league match at Tynecastle to avoid a clash. Third Lanark, ever obliging, agreed to the switch. Hearts were not so accommodating and at first refused giving "Queen's Park never do us or Edinburgh any favours” as the reason. They then reluctantly agreed to the switch perhaps realising that their share of the Cathkin gate money might be affected by the clash. Funnily enough just a few days after Hearts agreed to the switch, Queen’s Park declined the invitation to take part in Edinburgh's Roseberry Charity Cup competition.

With that obstacle overcome, they were left with another fixture clash – the Celtic v Rangers league match. A similar venue change would make no difference and a postponement request was out of the question so having the Scotland team play was the idea to attract a big gate. The press lauded Queen’s Park for their initiative but the reality was they were not being as altruistic as it would appear.

The team that played Corinthians on that day was: -

Wilson (Vale of Leven), Arnott (Queen’s Park), Smellie (Queen's Park), Begbie (Heart of Midlothian), McPherson (Heart of Midlothian), Hill (Heart of Midlothian), Watt (Kilbirnie), Berry (Queen's Park), Sellar (Queen's Park), Baird (Heart of Midlothian), Rankin (Vale of Leven)

The Scotland XI won 9-2 after being 2-0 down within the first 20 minutes. Watt scored 4, Baird (2) with Berry, Sellar and Rankin one each. The crowd was estimated at 10,000.

In the end the warm up match did no good. England recorded a rare victory over the same team, beating Scotland 2-1 at Blackburn.

bluedragon
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Re: RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by bluedragon » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:55 am

Thank you for the details of this match. It certainly gets my vote to go on our list of unofficial matches. Our criteria are that the team must be an SFA team. These are certainly unusual circumstances but the team was selected by the SFA, that must have given its tacit approval given the fixture change you mention. I also found that two of the selectors watched the game. It was also widely reported in England that this was a warm-up match for the Scotland team to play England.

I have now found that it was the idea of William Sellar the Queen’s Park centre forward who had been selected to play against England at Blackburn. Putting the idea into practice fell to John McTavish, the Queen’s Park match secretary. It was certainly seen as a great idea:

“This enterprise of the Queen’s Park executive has given great satisfaction.”

“The home eleven is made up of our international team, in order that they may have a chance of falling into each others play.”

The opponents selected XI was:

Corinthians (Oxford & Cambridge Universities): LR Wilkinson (Oxford), AH Harrison (Cambridge), R Jackson (Oxford), AH Hossack (Cambridge), C Wreford-Brown (Oxford), J Shaw (Oxford), TM Pike (Cambridge), ES Surrey (or Currey) (no university given), T Lindley (Cambridge), TAB Clark (Oxford), MH Stanborough (Cambridge).

Aten
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Re: RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by Aten » Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:54 am

Cheers bluedragon, glad you found that useful.

Yes, I did notice the suggestion that William Sellar put forward the idea. Other reports, however, suggested it may have been Walter Arnott the Queen's Park and Scotland captain. It was alleged that this would be Arnott's last season at Queen's Park as he was moving to Ireland and it could be some tribute/testimonial to his service for both club and country. As you will be aware this did not happen as Arnott played on for several more years at Queen's Park.

What is not in doubt was, as you say, John McTavish was that man left to organise the event.

It also seems they attempted to do they same with a match against Kilmarnock the following Saturday. For whatever reason that did not come off and it was the usual Queen's Park team that played that day.

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Re: RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:40 pm

I think there may be a wee bit of confusion here. Queen`s Park did indeed play Corinthins in those days but they played only a pair of home & home fixture each season - one @ 2nd Hampden on Ne`erday & the other in the Spring wherever Pa Jackson`s team hung its hat. In 1891, Queen`s won 3-1 @ Hampden on 1/1/1891 & Corinthians won 1-0 @ Kennington Oval on 14th February. The side Queen`s initially agreed to play on 21st March was Jackson`s Oxford & Cambridge University Corinthians a slightly different one to his original Corinthians which usually consisted of London men and it`s this `Varsity Corinthians which Wattie Arnott`s Scotch Internationalists played & wa-alloped! Agreed, it should be included as an unofficial Scottish international.

bluedragon
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Re: RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by bluedragon » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:58 am

Thanks for clarifying that. We will ensure that we add a note to make it clear that this was not the regular Queen's Park v Corinthian fixture of the time.

Thank you.

Gabe
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Re: RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by Gabe » Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:09 pm

With great help from here we have now been able to add full match details, e.g. teams, goalscorers, etc. for all the unofficial matches played by a Scotland XI selected by the SFA. Here is a link to the RSSSF website.

Scotland - Unofficial Matches Results (rsssf.com)

We are missing a few details of matches played in the tours of North America where newspaper reports of some matches only gave minimal information. These gaps are mostly the name of some grounds and some first names/clubs of the opposition players are missing. We are also not absolutely sure we have found all matches played during the Second World War.
As always, if anyone has any additions, can fill in a gap or two, has a comment to make, etc. please do just let us know.


Rob R
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Re: RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by Rob R » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:06 pm

Just came across a closed door game on Thursday 16th October 1958 , two days before we met Wales in Cardiff , we beat Reading 2--0 at Elm Park.

Gabe
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Re: RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by Gabe » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:52 pm

Thank you for giving us another match to investigate.

Steve Bell
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Re: RSSSF Scotland records - changes

Post by Steve Bell » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:22 am

Thursday, 9th April 1959. Reading 1 Scotland XI 2 at Elm Park.

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